Using Sparco Sprint V and Hans anyone?

[Magpie]

A harness locks you into the seat and on impact your core stays put and limbs (including head) get the momentum whereas a seat belt gives/absords the momenum of the impact hence there is POSSIBLY less limbs flailing around.

Another difference is with a harness most people have a helmet hence the head will have more momentum even at low speeds when wearing a harness. Not sure how a seat belt and helmet would work.

It is a question of how much price do you put on your own safety. I suggest that you do a risk assessment and come up with your own risk profile and act accordingly.

[MattR]

As I put up in the Interior and body forum topic about race seat options and using a harness without HANS device.......

Not quite true.

A HANS device used with a harness will provide protection to the neck in a frontal accident than harness alone, but the use of a harness fitted correctly used in conjunction with the correct seat type is still a very safe option.

A six point harness with the correct seat type will offer much better protection than a 3 point lap sash or 4 point harness. And unless you are always, and I mean ALWAYS going to wear a HANS device when using a harness do not buy the harnesses with 2 inch webbing or the 2 inch section of webbing on the shoulder straps. If you do have an impact wearing a 2 inch shoulder strap rather than a 3 inch shoulder strap you will know why you should have used the 3 inch wide strap.

And make sure the harness is installed properly to suitable mounts and all the angles of the crotch straps, lap straps and shoulder straps are as recommended. And DO NOT use a harness with a seat with out the harness holes in the back rest, and make sure the seat fits you properly, that is your shoulders are not above the harness holes when sitting in it so the shoulder straps can work properly.

HANS devices have only been around for about 10 years or so, if that.

I have been using six point harnesses for about 20 years, have had 3 big crashes in race cars where the car has either been written off or severely damaged plus numerous other crashes where damage was less severe where a big hammer got the car running again. The only injuries being minor and usually some bruising caused by the harness. The worst injuries suffered was when I destroyed a Sports 1300 doing around 120mph at the top of bitupave hill at Amaroo and had something break in the suspension. The car went into the wall and destroyed itself pretty well, I could only salvage the motor and gear box, one wheel and got $12 for the scrap aluminium. I spent 3 days in bed with bruising from the harness, thankfully 3 inch straps, and bruised knees where they bounced around and smacked into the sides and bottom of the dash.

So does that mean for the all the years I have been racing where HANS devices have been unavailable that I have been dicing with death?????

I'm sorry but some of the misinformation that comes up on this forum would be laughable if it didn't have potentially dangerous repercussions for some readers who take all that is said on the forum as gospel.

As said above, if you have only a standard seat without provision for the shoulder straps to go through the seat, and not either side of the seat as per a standard NA or NB seat please for your own safety use the standard lap sash belt. If you are using a 4 point harness, upgrade to a 5 or 6 point harness, in most cases the lap belts will creep up into your abdomen when you tighten the shoulder straps and not sit across your hips/lap as they are designed. This will result in at worse submarining under the belt, and at best some nasty bruising and potential internal injuries.

I have seen some harness installations that have left me shaking my head in wonder how someone is still alive at times.

Why do I bang on about this??? 25+ years involved in racing, including over 10 years as a fire marshal from club level to a senior pit lane fire marshal at F1, and medical car/FIV driver at Bathurst and Indy I have seen a lot of incidents where injuries could have been avoided by the propoer use of safety gear, especially the installation of harnesses and seats.

[Magpie]

Email from Racer Industries today...

Sparco 6-pt Clubman Harness $275 http://www.racerindustries.com.au/afawcs0161690/CATID=38/ID=14809/SID=287792876/Sparco-6-pt-Clubman-Harness.html

Sparco 6pt Hans Club Style Harness (Developed specifically for use with a HANS® device) $335 http://www.racerindustries.com.au/afawcs0161690/CATID=38/ID=12696/SID=680632201/Sparco-6pt-Hans-Club-Style-Harness-FIA-Approved.html

[mazmad]

HANS have been around for 20 years. The NHRA started using them in the US as early as 1996 (not mandated until 2004). It was mandated by F1 in 2003.

[MattR]

And HANS devices have only become an issue in the last 12 months for most here because of the decision to make them mandatory at QR and Lakeside for racing starting Jan 2014 and CAMS jumping on board to make them mandatory for all race meetings from january 2015.

Most people do not have the associated hardware for them to safely wear a HANS device, proper seat, harness and cage, fitted in their play car.

It really only becomes of benefit once your car meets the relevant racing body standards, generally CAMS/FIA/SCCA type which means cars built for door to door racing, rally or off road competition not sprints that the majority of people on here compete in.

If HANS is made compulsory for sprints, then a lot of people won't be able to play because of the cost of getting the rest of the car up to scratch.

[greenMachine]

And HANS devices have only become an issue in the last 12 months for most here because of the decision to make them mandatory at QR and Lakeside for racing starting Jan 2014 and CAMS jumping on board to make them mandatory for all race meetings from january 2015.

Most people do not have the associated hardware for them to safely wear a HANS device, proper seat, harness and cage, fitted in their play car.

"People" spend big on their play cars. If "people" can't fit a decent seat, a half cage (at least), and a harness, frankly, they should not be playing. In that scheme of things, a HANS is NBD.

It really only becomes of benefit once your car meets the relevant racing body standards, generally CAMS/FIA/SCCA type which means cars built for door to door racing, rally or off road competition not sprints that the majority of people on here compete in.

If HANS is made compulsory for sprints, then a lot of people won't be able to play because of the cost of getting the rest of the car up to scratch.

We had an MX5 written off (my guess, but it was a big hit in any event) at T1 EC last round. That is the third that I know of in the last 12 months or so. Sprints may not be door to door, but it's not playschool either. Safety needs to keep up with car development, and safety development. HANS is coming, and if you don't like it, you will have a choice...

In my opinion, it will (can only?) be applied to logbooked cars for supersprints, all of which should have a cage, seat, and harness anyway. It might apply to cars running in some of the faster classes even if they are registered, but in my book, if you want to play with the fast cars, you probably should be playing by all their rules. That would cruel a number of our members who are class hunting for points, but if it happens, it happens.

For those who want to run their DD in a race meeting, the future does not look as bad as it might first appear. The half cage and harness, and seat probably, are easy and they already have those, or they wouldn't be racing? Swap out the road seat for the race seat, and you are good to go on race day. What are we talking about here? Say $1500 for half cage and harness, $1000 for a seat (fitted), and some more for boots, gloves, and suit ($1k?)? So the HANS and an SAH2010 helmet is probably the thick end of another grand. It adds up I know, but it does not look like doomsday to me.

Matt, I get that you don't like the way this is going, but I do not think things are so bad really.

[MattR]

I don't have a problem with safety and HANS, I think it's great, but people have to remember that a HANS device is only one part of the whole picture for safety it is not the magic bullet that will stop any more injuries or deaths in the sport on its own.

I sold a sparco pro2000 to replace it with a OMP seat with better head restraints to better suit the HANS device for the S14. I also spent a shed load of dollars on the cage to make sure it was the best I could get built for the budget. That car is for door to door so a bit different to my MX5 which may go to 4-5 track days for a bit of fun each year.

For a track day when I take out my NA6, I use my helmet and minimum clothing required because it doesn't have all the supporting gear to use the HANS, standard seat and lap sash belt. I did look at fitting the sparco in but it didn't fit without some major fabrication work that I wasn't prepared to do.

But, people shouldn't be using a HANS device unless they have the proper supporting equipment to make best use of it. Same with other bits of kit. Someone mentioned that they are using a 4 point harness with a standard seat, that really does scare me as that provides less protection than a lap sash belt in an impact.

If HANS devices are made compulsory for all track activities then a lot of people won't be participating. Like you said it will more than likely be for log booked cars only, and to get a log book you need to meet the requirements of ......... So cars used for competition only are covered, which is sensible.

Speed events may also end up going the way of drag racing, do a certain time or average speed, you go away until your car complies to do those speeds.

[forcedfive]

Matt,

Would you mind explaining how a 4 point with a standard seat offer less impact protection than a lap sash?

Cheers

[MattR]

In text it will be difficult but I will give it a go.

First up, the shoulder straps will be fitted by passing either side of the headrest, ie they will be sitting on the side of the seat and not through the back of the seat threaded through the holes designed for them.

In an impact as the body moves forward and the straps are tensioned they will want to slide away to the sides and fall down the sides of the seat, path of least resistance, that means your torso will pop out the front unrestrained and you will effectively only be wearing a lap belt. allowing your face to nicely plant itself into the steering wheel, dash or whatever else you can bounce into.

Where they are used with a seat designed for harnesses the shoulder straps pass through the holes in the seat and are effectively captive so they can't slide down the sides of the seat allowing your torso to pop out the front.

Another problem is the lap belt part of the harness. Most race seats will again have holes to position the lap belts so that they are guided to sit across your hips when done up, the standard seat does not have this. In most cases, a 4 point harness when tightened will have the lap part of the harness rise up to be sitting across your abdomen. In an impact this can cause internal injuries and bleeding, not nice.

Again, the guide holes on the sides of a race seat are there to help keep the lap portion of the harness across the hips and not creep up to the abdomen. In a lot of cases this does still happen, and even if it doesn't, a 4 point harness still has the risk of allowing you to submarine out of the harness in a big enough impact of the "right" kind.

A 5 or 6 point harness when properly adjusted keeps the lap portion of the harness across the hips and won't let the lap belts ride up into the abdominal area.



Sorry to the website I pinched this from but it illustrates nicely all that is wrong with a standard road seat and a 4 point harness.
You can see there is nothing stopping the shoulder straps from sliding sideways in an impact and you falling out of them. You may argue that the standard lap sash belt will stop the outer strap, but there is nothing preventing the inner strap from moving sideways.

Also the lap belt is way to high, it should be tight across the hips not in the middle of the belly like the picture shows. In an impact the driver will be badly bruised across the abdomen and is at risk of internal injuries and bleeding/bruising. To make matters worse he has also fitted the standard belt so neither can do the job they were designed for.

I hope this short explanation gives you the info you were after.

Like most safety gear, if it isn't used in conjunction with other safety equipment and fitted properly it can be more dangerous than not having it.

[Trackphotos]

I had images disabled in chrome (conserving bandwidth at all costs 2 days before end of bandwidth month ) so I read your whole post before enabling images and seeing that one. Reading it, it all made sense. Room for shoulders to slip, lap belt to sit too high etc, all makes sense. Then I saw the image, and damn. That just looks shoddy all over. It looks like the shoulders are one tiny movement away from being completely useless. The buckle looks like it'd be uncomfortable to say the least when you tighten the harness, let alone what would happen in a big impact. I don't even like 4 point harnesses fitted properly because of the submarining that you mentioned, but with a stock seat it looks like you could bounce around terribly.

[david_syd_au]

And HANS devices have only become an issue in the last 12 months for most here because of the decision to make them mandatory at QR and Lakeside for racing starting Jan 2014 and CAMS jumping on board to make them mandatory for all race meetings from january 2015.

Just to be clear on what is and is not required ... frontal head restraints (FHR) will only be mandatory for CAMS licensed race events at state or national levels, and last I heard it was from July 2014 for national race events, and from Jan 2015 for state race events. There is no requirement for FHRs at CAMS licensed club or multi-club race events, nor for sprint events at any level. Nothing has been mandated for any AASA events.
Apart from that, I don't know what the specific requirements are, if any, for FHR use at QR and Lakeside.

I agree 100% that a FHR should only be used in a suitably prepared vehicle, and then must be worn correctly to provide benefit. Which raises the point, does anyone have links to good information on correct FHR use?

[Magpie]

http://www.hansdevice.com.au/fitment.html

http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/index.html

[colster3]

Hi forcedfive,
I had a 99 NB race car with a Sparco Sprint V seat in it. Monza 6 point harness (with 3 inch straps) and a carbon fibre Hans device. I had no issues with fitment, I am 188 cm tall so I had to lower the floor to get sufficient clearance for my helmet and the roll bar (and to be safely inside the hardtop).

The only issue with the Hans device (and this doesn't matter what car you are in) is the restriction of head turning ability... Once out on the track, I forgot it was there.

[RS2000]

Matt,

Would you mind explaining how a 4 point with a standard seat offer less impact protection than a lap sash?

Cheers

Please prove me wrong, but I don't think you can.

If you have a 4 point harness with a standard seat , then cross over the shoulder straps behind the seat to stop them coming off shoulders. Fully tighten the lap belts before making the shoulder belts snug.
This will have as much submaring protection as a lap sash, & less likely to come sideways out of the shoulder strap.

Also IMO a 'fixed' belt is better than an inertia reel belt. Despite what some people think, the energy absortion is done via the belt stretching. It is the same for harnesses & seat belts. In a front on collision, I would rather not move freely forward the small amount that an inertia reel allows before locking.
If I have to use a lap sash on the track I lock it first by pulling it rapidly, before buckling up - but it takes a few goes to get the length right for a tight belt.

Cheers

[frog_a_lot]

Rather than starting new thread..

Where is best place to get Hans device + compatible helmet..I thought i saw somewhere a while back that was doing a special deal on both?

Cheers guys