Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Moderators: timk, Stu, zombie, Andrew, The American, Lokiel, -alex, miata, StanTheMan, greenMachine, ManiacLachy, Daffy
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
I was going to hold off on starting this thread until I had the chance to take some better (not mobile phone) pictures but.... Covid.
So here goes! As many here would have seen I recently sold my long term NB SE 'Selene'...
I could have got a higher price but wanted to find the right home and fortunately I believe I did with a member of these very forums. I had spent a lot of time, effort and money on her over the years and the last thing I wanted was to see her trashed by some boy racer because Nissan S cars are now too expensive...
Why not do more myself? Well I felt the journey had gone as far as I was willing to take it without a major escalation in scope and cost and only maniacs in Queensland, who's name may or may not being with L (2 of them) or D (probably the worst) seem to be that way inclined!
For those of you who aren't familiar here's a picture of my now departed....
Initially I was unsure what I was going to replace Selene with, but it didn't take long before I realised I wanted much the same as before, just newer. Perhaps upgrading the 17yr old 323 Astina povo-pack daily driver with a new top of the line Subaru Impreza had something to do with it?
So, a good handling, open top sports cars it is! What are the options? Not too many that appeal to be honest....
BMW Z4? Nah I'm just not that much of an a-hole and I know how to use a blinker...
Porsche Boxster? For the budget, 987.2 so 10+ years old and expensive if things go wrong...
Another MX5? That'll do! But which one?
I've never been a fan of the NC and was fascinated by the ND from when they were released so an easy choice there. I remember attending Blue Mountains Mazda Dealership (MX5 Club of NSW sponsor) for the official release and over 100 club members were in attendance and test driving on the day!
However, up until this point I'd never test dríven one (didn't want to tempt myself) and was unsure if they'd lost something in the process of evolving to meet modern standards. I was also undecided about soft top verses retractable fastback. I liked the style and security offered by the fastback but didn't want to lose the open-air feeling of the soft-top, which was almost never up on Selene.
Opportunity knocked and a local dealership (Ford ironically) had one of each on the used car lot, a little older and somewhat riced up, but good enough to have a decent test drive and do a back to back comparison. The verdict? Well both feel a lot more enclosed than an NB with a higher waistline, presumably for improved side impact protection. The cabin also feels more 'cosy' than the NB, which fortunately I like.
Once on the move though there was little between them in terms of openness except for a barn door sized blindspot on the RF when looking over your shoulder. Blind-spot monitoring and rear cross traffic alert features helped deal with this but it's still a bit nerve wracking reversing in the RF... Apart from that the buttress arrangement of the RF largely disappears behind you while driving and I found I hardly noticed it.
Now, new or second hand? There's the $60K question.... seriously that's what a new fully optioned up ND GT RF RS costs, I think most went on the absurdly long acronym...
I had another problem though, I'd sat in the ND version of the Recaros and well, I couldn't settle for the normal seats after that...
After contacting Mazda Australia and establishing there was no way of getting them as a special order from the factory I was disheartened. It was even worse when I discovered it was possible to get them directly from the manufacturer but would come in at ~$14K landed in Australia.
So a new ND RF with all the bits I wanted, including Recaros, was heading North of $75K before I started playing with it.... *Sigh*
What now? After some research I established that the Recaros were only ever available in Australia in two versions;
- 30AE, soft-top only, only in an orange colour I wasn't fond of and only 30 delivered.
- MY18 RF Ltd., only Retractable Fastback, available in 5 colours, only 110 delivered, older ND1 gen.
So the choice was made and the search began for an RF Ltd. in either Soul Red or Machine Grey that wasn't one of the 7 press cars trashed by journos on release. Through some dumb luck I was able to find out the VIN numbers of the press cars so was able to avoid them....
While searching and researching I stumbled across the below image of an American Club spec which is very similar to the Aussie RF Ltd. and afterwards the decision for Soul Red was made!
Here's a little video (UK version similar but different) that I may have watched a few (lots of) times...
https://youtu.be/HMFskx7F-Rg
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home....
So here goes! As many here would have seen I recently sold my long term NB SE 'Selene'...
I could have got a higher price but wanted to find the right home and fortunately I believe I did with a member of these very forums. I had spent a lot of time, effort and money on her over the years and the last thing I wanted was to see her trashed by some boy racer because Nissan S cars are now too expensive...
Why not do more myself? Well I felt the journey had gone as far as I was willing to take it without a major escalation in scope and cost and only maniacs in Queensland, who's name may or may not being with L (2 of them) or D (probably the worst) seem to be that way inclined!
For those of you who aren't familiar here's a picture of my now departed....
Initially I was unsure what I was going to replace Selene with, but it didn't take long before I realised I wanted much the same as before, just newer. Perhaps upgrading the 17yr old 323 Astina povo-pack daily driver with a new top of the line Subaru Impreza had something to do with it?
So, a good handling, open top sports cars it is! What are the options? Not too many that appeal to be honest....
BMW Z4? Nah I'm just not that much of an a-hole and I know how to use a blinker...
Porsche Boxster? For the budget, 987.2 so 10+ years old and expensive if things go wrong...
Another MX5? That'll do! But which one?
I've never been a fan of the NC and was fascinated by the ND from when they were released so an easy choice there. I remember attending Blue Mountains Mazda Dealership (MX5 Club of NSW sponsor) for the official release and over 100 club members were in attendance and test driving on the day!
However, up until this point I'd never test dríven one (didn't want to tempt myself) and was unsure if they'd lost something in the process of evolving to meet modern standards. I was also undecided about soft top verses retractable fastback. I liked the style and security offered by the fastback but didn't want to lose the open-air feeling of the soft-top, which was almost never up on Selene.
Opportunity knocked and a local dealership (Ford ironically) had one of each on the used car lot, a little older and somewhat riced up, but good enough to have a decent test drive and do a back to back comparison. The verdict? Well both feel a lot more enclosed than an NB with a higher waistline, presumably for improved side impact protection. The cabin also feels more 'cosy' than the NB, which fortunately I like.
Once on the move though there was little between them in terms of openness except for a barn door sized blindspot on the RF when looking over your shoulder. Blind-spot monitoring and rear cross traffic alert features helped deal with this but it's still a bit nerve wracking reversing in the RF... Apart from that the buttress arrangement of the RF largely disappears behind you while driving and I found I hardly noticed it.
Now, new or second hand? There's the $60K question.... seriously that's what a new fully optioned up ND GT RF RS costs, I think most went on the absurdly long acronym...
I had another problem though, I'd sat in the ND version of the Recaros and well, I couldn't settle for the normal seats after that...
After contacting Mazda Australia and establishing there was no way of getting them as a special order from the factory I was disheartened. It was even worse when I discovered it was possible to get them directly from the manufacturer but would come in at ~$14K landed in Australia.
So a new ND RF with all the bits I wanted, including Recaros, was heading North of $75K before I started playing with it.... *Sigh*
What now? After some research I established that the Recaros were only ever available in Australia in two versions;
- 30AE, soft-top only, only in an orange colour I wasn't fond of and only 30 delivered.
- MY18 RF Ltd., only Retractable Fastback, available in 5 colours, only 110 delivered, older ND1 gen.
So the choice was made and the search began for an RF Ltd. in either Soul Red or Machine Grey that wasn't one of the 7 press cars trashed by journos on release. Through some dumb luck I was able to find out the VIN numbers of the press cars so was able to avoid them....
While searching and researching I stumbled across the below image of an American Club spec which is very similar to the Aussie RF Ltd. and afterwards the decision for Soul Red was made!
Here's a little video (UK version similar but different) that I may have watched a few (lots of) times...
https://youtu.be/HMFskx7F-Rg
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home....
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
- ManiacLachy
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 3265
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:35 pm
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Brisbane
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
I think you took Selene as far as was sensible, as you pointed out, we aren't so sensible up here. She was a beaut and the new owner has picked up a great car.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Scarlett goes!
I'm looking forward to seeing how Scarlett goes!
-
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:41 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
I've put a bit of money in my ND2 RF but was lucky to pick it up at a very good price just prior to Covid 19 hitting and skewing the used car market.
You'll love an RF Ltd I reckon so good luck.
Had to keep my NA8 though!
You'll love an RF Ltd I reckon so good luck.
Had to keep my NA8 though!
- greenMachine
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 4053
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:00 am
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Sports car paradise - Canberra
- Contact:
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
You don't say what were the other things you wanted that the RF Ltd had, but for mine, I would have bought the ND I wanted, and sourced the seats from a part-out/wrecker, in due time.
Academic now though, looking forward to hearing more of Scarlett's progress!
Academic now though, looking forward to hearing more of Scarlett's progress!
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
- Lokiel
- Forum legend
- Posts: 4126
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:39 pm
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Brisbania
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Good to see you back in an MX5 and an ND (I can't see myself purchasing an NC except as a dedicated track car).
Those black rims actually look good, the large rotors and brake calipers lighten-up the wheel wells enough that you can actually see what they look like and they don't "drab-out" the car, making it look heavy.
What's "the sweet-spot" for ND rim size?
Those look like they'd produce a harsh ride (or are the springs softer to overcome this?).
Those black rims actually look good, the large rotors and brake calipers lighten-up the wheel wells enough that you can actually see what they look like and they don't "drab-out" the car, making it look heavy.
What's "the sweet-spot" for ND rim size?
Those look like they'd produce a harsh ride (or are the springs softer to overcome this?).
Don't worry about dying, worry about not living!
Garage Thread: http://www.mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=76716
Garage Thread: http://www.mx5cartalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=76716
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
greenMachine wrote:You don't say what were the other things you wanted that the RF Ltd had, but for mine, I would have bought the ND I wanted, and sourced the seats from a part-out/wrecker, in due time.
Apart from the Recaros I wanted;
- Kuroi bodykit
- Black roof
- BBS wheels
- Brembos
- Bilstein Shocks (non-track use so just adding springs is recognised as best solution on road)
As I mentioned that would have been an ND2 GT RF RS @~$60K before sourcing non-existent second hand Recaros and blacking out the roof!
I paid a lot less than that for the Ltd.
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Lokiel wrote:What's "the sweet-spot" for ND rim size?
Those look like they'd produce a harsh ride (or are the springs softer to overcome this?).
It's difficult to go less than 17" because brakes.... Some cases of 16" but rare.
Most go for a slightly wider rim, standard is 7"... 8" or 9" is common.
Tyres go from 205/45-17 ex factory to 215/45-17 on factory rims, 225/45-17 on other rims...
As for harshness, I had no problems doing 1100km in a day and a half coming home and if anything would like them a little firmer and/or less body roll.
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
-
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:23 pm
- Vehicle: NB8B - Turbo
- Location: Brisbane, Qld. Previously Perth WA
- Contact:
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Looks very nice!
I’d like to own both an NC and an ND at some stage.
I’d like to own both an NC and an ND at some stage.
- greenMachine
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 4053
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:00 am
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Sports car paradise - Canberra
- Contact:
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Nevyn72 wrote:greenMachine wrote:You don't say what were the other things you wanted that the RF Ltd had, but for mine, I would have bought the ND I wanted, and sourced the seats from a part-out/wrecker, in due time.
Apart from the Recaros I wanted;
- Kuroi bodykit
- Black roof
- BBS wheels
- Brembos
- Bilstein Shocks (non-track use so just adding springs is recognised as best solution on road)
As I mentioned that would have been an ND2 GT RF RS @~$60K before sourcing non-existent second hand Recaros and blacking out the roof!
I paid a lot less than that for the Ltd.
You did well then . Always been a fan of buying not-quite-new second hand cars, big savings to be made, as long as you can get what you want, or so close the difference is wearable.
Jeeze is a new ND $60k now It makes putting a few bucks into my SE almost an investment!
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
Told work to bugger off for a while, I want a few days off*.... I'm supposed to be semi-retired!
* they obviously aren't paying attention, while typing this I've had 3 calls about covering different jobs over then next couple of days.
Now where were we?... Oh that's right I had decided that the MY18 ND RF Ltd. (in Red) was the car for me, now to find one!
There were two problems with this though,
1) I was originally really loving the machine grey.
2) It's an ND1, which while not bad, supposedly isn't as good...
To solve the first issue I just kept staring at the image and video I linked in the first post above.
I also kept revisiting an article from the launch of the Ltd. with pictures of the colours together in the real world.
https://andreainarcadia.com/2018/04/09/australian-launch-of-only-110-limited-edition-mazda-mx-5-rfs-my18/
In that context the Machine Grey looks quite lifeless compared to the Soul Red.
This article also pointed out the 7 of 110 were press cars, need to try and avoid them!
Here's another release article with the official photo gallery of both Red and Grey examples.
Article -> https://www.caradvice.com.au/621916/2018-mazda-mx-5-rf-limited-edition-review/
Gallery -> https://www.caradvice.com.au/621916/2018-mazda-mx-5-rf-limited-edition-review/photos/#75985ada1bd5eb17d45e7501ed02b536
Now as for the ND1 Vs. ND2 thing, well you first have to consider what the differences are...
Apart from a few detail changes (for the GT RF at least) such as the pimple in the rear bumper for the very low res reversing camera, reverse parking sensors and a change to silver stitching from the (not really) red stitching in the cabin, most differences are in the drivetrain.
Firstly there's the power increase from 118KW to 135KW. This is achieved with a freer flowing head, lighter pistons and rods (not forged) and a forged crank with a higher redline of 7200, up from 6500. Now the power curve up to 6500 is almost identical (it actually has slightly less torque ~4000rpm) but from there, where the ND1 falls off, the ND2 just keeps going. So unless you spend a lot of time up at redline there's no real difference, and infact you're slightly worse off in the mid-range.
Secondly there's the gearbox, the ND's main weakness. The ND2 gets the .v5, which is the most recent and supposedly strongest version. The MY18 RF Ltd. gets the .v4, which was only slightly changed to become the .v5. The biggest improvement in durability came with the .v2 to .v3 upgrade.
Thirdly the ND2 moved to a dual mass flywheel, supposedly to help protect the gearbox. While this is a very unique dual mass flywheel in that it's very light, there is a small loss in clutch 'feel' and a mass increase as a result.
Finally the Bilstein dampers (where fitted) are re-valved for the ND2, but I can't really find out what changes this made...
Given the savings of going for the ND1 and that I don't do track days or spend much time at redline I was quite happy to make this compromise rather than going for new.
So on with the search!
Given there were only 110 imported and they are only ~3 years old there were, not surprisingly, very few for sale.... and only one in Sydney...
So I went to see that one...
It was Machine Grey...
I tried to buy it...
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home.... No seriously... I'm getting there... eventually...
* they obviously aren't paying attention, while typing this I've had 3 calls about covering different jobs over then next couple of days.
Now where were we?... Oh that's right I had decided that the MY18 ND RF Ltd. (in Red) was the car for me, now to find one!
There were two problems with this though,
1) I was originally really loving the machine grey.
2) It's an ND1, which while not bad, supposedly isn't as good...
To solve the first issue I just kept staring at the image and video I linked in the first post above.
I also kept revisiting an article from the launch of the Ltd. with pictures of the colours together in the real world.
https://andreainarcadia.com/2018/04/09/australian-launch-of-only-110-limited-edition-mazda-mx-5-rfs-my18/
In that context the Machine Grey looks quite lifeless compared to the Soul Red.
This article also pointed out the 7 of 110 were press cars, need to try and avoid them!
Here's another release article with the official photo gallery of both Red and Grey examples.
Article -> https://www.caradvice.com.au/621916/2018-mazda-mx-5-rf-limited-edition-review/
Gallery -> https://www.caradvice.com.au/621916/2018-mazda-mx-5-rf-limited-edition-review/photos/#75985ada1bd5eb17d45e7501ed02b536
Now as for the ND1 Vs. ND2 thing, well you first have to consider what the differences are...
Apart from a few detail changes (for the GT RF at least) such as the pimple in the rear bumper for the very low res reversing camera, reverse parking sensors and a change to silver stitching from the (not really) red stitching in the cabin, most differences are in the drivetrain.
Firstly there's the power increase from 118KW to 135KW. This is achieved with a freer flowing head, lighter pistons and rods (not forged) and a forged crank with a higher redline of 7200, up from 6500. Now the power curve up to 6500 is almost identical (it actually has slightly less torque ~4000rpm) but from there, where the ND1 falls off, the ND2 just keeps going. So unless you spend a lot of time up at redline there's no real difference, and infact you're slightly worse off in the mid-range.
Secondly there's the gearbox, the ND's main weakness. The ND2 gets the .v5, which is the most recent and supposedly strongest version. The MY18 RF Ltd. gets the .v4, which was only slightly changed to become the .v5. The biggest improvement in durability came with the .v2 to .v3 upgrade.
Thirdly the ND2 moved to a dual mass flywheel, supposedly to help protect the gearbox. While this is a very unique dual mass flywheel in that it's very light, there is a small loss in clutch 'feel' and a mass increase as a result.
Finally the Bilstein dampers (where fitted) are re-valved for the ND2, but I can't really find out what changes this made...
Given the savings of going for the ND1 and that I don't do track days or spend much time at redline I was quite happy to make this compromise rather than going for new.
So on with the search!
Given there were only 110 imported and they are only ~3 years old there were, not surprisingly, very few for sale.... and only one in Sydney...
So I went to see that one...
It was Machine Grey...
I tried to buy it...
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home.... No seriously... I'm getting there... eventually...
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
So, in case you hadn't guessed, I didn't buy the Machine Grey car in Sydney, there were..... issues....
Some with the car, including condition (badly rashed wheel, damaged front skirt, huge number of stone chips on the front end), history, or a complete lack thereof, and that it had been unregistered for 10 months and I wasn't confident on the storage or recommissioning process... It hadn't even been washed properly. With 23K km on the clock it was not even a low mileage version, especially considering the time off the road!
However the erratic conduct of the seller and his inconsistent stories were more of a worry!
Despite this I still tried to buy it, for an appropriate discount, but he was adamant on an unrealistic price, especially as it was unregistered and it's poor condition, even worse he only had the one key and no immobiliser code tag... Walk away... just walk away...
After seeing one in the flesh and crawling around one I was starting to buckle on the Machine Grey option though.
So what else was available?
There was (and still is) another Machine grey version over in WA, in what appears great condition, with 18K km on the clock, but is completely wrapped in a chamelion/silver finish and the price @ ~$44K is a bit high given it's so far away... and as you can see from the image below, Yuck!
Otherwise there was what appeared to be the perfect Soul Red version in apparently showroom condition and very low mileage for a very reasonable price in Regional Queensland.... Perfect!
But.... after messaging the seller I learned she already had a buyer lined up, just waiting on finance...
A few days later she messaged to say she wasn't selling anymore as she wanted to keep it! *Sigh*
So began the daily search of online sales services in the hope something else would come up...
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home.... I'll get to the point... Soon... Honest!
Some with the car, including condition (badly rashed wheel, damaged front skirt, huge number of stone chips on the front end), history, or a complete lack thereof, and that it had been unregistered for 10 months and I wasn't confident on the storage or recommissioning process... It hadn't even been washed properly. With 23K km on the clock it was not even a low mileage version, especially considering the time off the road!
However the erratic conduct of the seller and his inconsistent stories were more of a worry!
Despite this I still tried to buy it, for an appropriate discount, but he was adamant on an unrealistic price, especially as it was unregistered and it's poor condition, even worse he only had the one key and no immobiliser code tag... Walk away... just walk away...
After seeing one in the flesh and crawling around one I was starting to buckle on the Machine Grey option though.
So what else was available?
There was (and still is) another Machine grey version over in WA, in what appears great condition, with 18K km on the clock, but is completely wrapped in a chamelion/silver finish and the price @ ~$44K is a bit high given it's so far away... and as you can see from the image below, Yuck!
Otherwise there was what appeared to be the perfect Soul Red version in apparently showroom condition and very low mileage for a very reasonable price in Regional Queensland.... Perfect!
But.... after messaging the seller I learned she already had a buyer lined up, just waiting on finance...
A few days later she messaged to say she wasn't selling anymore as she wanted to keep it! *Sigh*
So began the daily search of online sales services in the hope something else would come up...
Next episode: Finding the right car and bringing it home.... I'll get to the point... Soon... Honest!
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
-
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 517
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:41 pm
- Vehicle: NA8
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
I really like Machine Grey - best colour available for the ND in my opinion. Just gives the car a more discreet but quality vibe.
-
- Racing Driver
- Posts: 1770
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:39 pm
- Vehicle: NB8A
- Location: FarSE Melbourne
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
lucmor444 wrote:I really like Machine Grey - best colour available for the ND in my opinion. Just gives the car a more discreet but quality vibe.
Machine grey is a lovely colour, ……for undercoat. Ready for the colour of your choice over the top…..
- greenMachine
- Forum Guru
- Posts: 4053
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:00 am
- Vehicle: NB SE
- Location: Sports car paradise - Canberra
- Contact:
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
lucmor444 wrote:I really like Machine Grey - best colour available for the ND in my opinion. Just gives the car a more discreet but quality vibe.
Totally agree, so very Holden Commodorey!
I never met a horsepower I didn't like (thanks bwob)
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
Build thread
NB SE - gone to the dark side (and loving it )
-
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2189
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:51 am
- Vehicle: ND - RF
- Location: Sydney
Re: Scarlett - ND RF Ltd. Goodness
While I also like the Machine Grey, both my previous MX5 and the old daily driver were just lighter shades of grey....
Time for a change!
Time for a change!
"A Convertible has a top you can put down when the weather's nice...... A Roadster has a top you can put up when the weather's bad."
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests