Si.G's NA6

Chat to do with your MX5/Miata/Eunos Garage Ride(s).

Moderators: timk, Stu, zombie, Andrew, The American, Lokiel, -alex, miata, StanTheMan, greenMachine, ManiacLachy, Daffy

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:43 pm

Okibi wrote:I don't know if Wilwoods are ADR compliant.


Is that because they don't have dust seals? If so, already sorted that, these guys fit the wilwood kit and have seals ---> http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-11481

You need to dial in boost control on the road.

I guess what I was meaning to say is, I need to make sure the actual thing works - did not want to let rip on the road and find i have infinite boost. Tested it out now and it is working.

Been out today and got a reasonable tune at waste gate pressure, which is 5psi ish. Set the boost control solenoid to be permanently open.

Struggling to find people who will hire me their dyno :( I might have to go back to the place I went last time and hope I get a better experience.

Build a new heat shield today, I had to move a brake line away from the zorst, but it is still getting super hot as you can imagine

Image
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

User avatar
kenson
Fast Driver
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:55 pm
Vehicle: NB SE
Location: Perth

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby kenson » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:45 am

Have you tried Evolution R Si.G?

Mao/Warwick should be pretty accommodating and even keen on learning another ECU.
By the way, I have no idea if he would or not. I was going to see him when I get MS'ed (DIYAutoTune said by the end of this year for the SE)

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:58 pm

kenson wrote:Have you tried Evolution R Si.G?

Mao/Warwick should be pretty accommodating and even keen on learning another ECU.
By the way, I have no idea if he would or not. I was going to see him when I get MS'ed (DIYAutoTune said by the end of this year for the SE)


Booked in on tuesday at rpw, really hope they are a little more customer focused this time. A little bit different this time though which should help.
1 I don't need their det cans, which did not work last time
2 tuning on MAP and with mild cams, should make things easier

Primary job is to get a full map up to wastegate pressure. I hope to do a lot more but that is a must.
Next job will be to dial in the knock sensor circuit settings, then dial in the close loop boost control setting and then crank up the boost through the load bins set on the map doing WOT runs.

Easy :D

Hopefully ordering my new brakes tomorrow too. Looking forward to having brakes that work!
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

User avatar
plohl
Racing Driver
Posts: 1922
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:13 am
Vehicle: NA8
Location: Brisbane

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby plohl » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:07 pm

best of luck with the tune man!
Cheers,
plohl

User avatar
NitroDann
Forum sponsor
Posts: 10280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:10 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Newcastle NSW
Contact:

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby NitroDann » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:35 pm

Autotune tune everywhere below about 5000rpm and 70kpa, and then starting very rich, use slow autotune to get to gate pressure. The rest is cake.

To tune in boost fast, do a row of cells, then use your imagination to interpolate the next row up, then use the MBC to get the boost into the middle of the next row of cells up and pull through it. Watch AFR and listen for det during the pull.\

Then look at the AFR log against rpm and manually decide what cells to take fuel from and how much, pull again to confirm, repeat.

Dann
http://www.NitroDann.com

speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:36 pm

NitroDann wrote:Autotune tune everywhere below about 5000rpm and 70kpa, and then starting very rich, use slow autotune to get to gate pressure. The rest is cake.

To tune in boost fast, do a row of cells, then use your imagination to interpolate the next row up, then use the MBC to get the boost into the middle of the next row of cells up and pull through it. Watch AFR and listen for det during the pull.\

Then look at the AFR log against rpm and manually decide what cells to take fuel from and how much, pull again to confirm, repeat.

Dann


Thanks for your input Dann, that is pretty much my plan in my head, but it is good to have it confirmed.

Any tips on ignition angle. The map I have is DIY auto tunes 250hp B6T map, I have backed the ignition off 2 degs in all the cells above 90kpa and add fuel to start safe hopefully. I get the concept of adding advance to reach peak power for the load site, obviously without it knocking. I guess I will just have to see what happens and take my time. I have 4 hours, so there is no rush.

Even if I don't totally maximise power will still have like 150% more power that I had :D

Another part of my plan is to make the engine knock low down, just so I can here the sound, I don't know what it is going to sound like from the built in knock output, it has some noise filtering. Apparently it will be a high pitch scratching sound, but I think I want to know what to listen.

Wish me luck
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

User avatar
NitroDann
Forum sponsor
Posts: 10280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:10 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Newcastle NSW
Contact:

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby NitroDann » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:58 pm

For timing do the same as fuel.

Start safe (not a lot of advance) and increase a whole row by say, 1*. Now you cannot check your AFR log, but you can overlay the last pull on that row, not where your new pull made more power, if everywhere (and safe AFR, no det etc) add another degree, overlay this against the last pull, if you made more power from 6000 up, for example, but no extra below that, remove the extra degree you just added to the area which didnt gain. add another degree to the area which did gain. etc etc

Dont interpolate up, use the base map with a few degrees pulled out.

If you want to ensure you cannot ping, set the ramp rate really slow, and do a long pull in a high gear, maybe a 10 second long pull, then use the dyno brake to bring the engine rpm back down while still using full throttle/boost. This is the ultimate cylinder temp torture test and if your map doesnt ping during this test it will never ever ever ping. Ever. Endurance teams use this method.

Dann
http://www.NitroDann.com

speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:36 pm

Sweet, thanks for that.

Checked my to do list today, glad I did, I had not changed my plugs to the colder set I have. Running BKR7EIX-11 NGK iridum now, had the same model but heat rating 6 version, so might have been ok, but might not have been.

Looking forward to tuesday :D
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

mr bender
Fast Driver
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:17 pm
Vehicle: NA6

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby mr bender » Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:10 pm

are you running E85?

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:06 pm

mr bender wrote:are you running E85?


No, not yet. I plan to, but I think it might be boarder line with the fuel injector duty cycle, so I will get a decent tune, do some kms, understand the car a bit, do a bit of motorsport before the end of the year and then think about e85 and injectors for next year. In addition, hopefully the supply here in Perth will have expanded to make it more accessible.

This is only my second time tuning on a dyno and my first FI, so I want to keep things relatively simple. I know there is a lot of info out there about tuning E85, but I have not really done much reading. I am sure it is not much different, but it would just be another variable.
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

mr bender
Fast Driver
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:17 pm
Vehicle: NA6

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby mr bender » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Sound like your all ready to go.
good luck for Tuesday.

User avatar
NitroDann
Forum sponsor
Posts: 10280
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:10 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Newcastle NSW
Contact:

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby NitroDann » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:16 pm

Leave the gasoline AFR setting on the wideband, tune 0.5 points leaner, start with 40% more fuel.

Everything else the same.

Use a FPR to get flow if you have to, you will get a better spray pattern anyway.

Dann
http://www.NitroDann.com

speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:28 pm

My day at the dyno - the Short Version
-- Tuned up to 5000rpm :D
-- My wideband is way out from the one at the dyno - 1.0 out. :?
-- Coolent and Intake temps stayed down IAT max 32C, Coolent 92c - did cool things a bit between runs, but happy with that :D
-- I could not get the boost controller to maintain a steady MAP in open loop and it did not seem to work at all in closed loop :cry:
-- Fried my COPS :cry: (my fault, must have reloaded a base map and forgot to change the dwell, was set to 4ms)
-- Hopefully getting more COPS tomorrow :D
-- Hopefully going to dyno on Saturday. :D
-- The car did feel good on the way home when the COPS were not making it miss fire :D
-- Nearly did not make it home, the miss fires got worse all the way home :lol:

(Long version to follow shortly)
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755

User avatar
Okibi
Speed Racer
Posts: 10898
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:00 am
Vehicle: NB SE
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Okibi » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:10 pm

I have some toyota COPs if you need.
If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away? Neither would I.

Si.G
Fast Driver
Posts: 416
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:38 pm
Vehicle: NA6
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Si.G's NA6

Postby Si.G » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:24 am

My day at the dyno - the long version

Image

So, I got to the dyno with a plan written down and everything checked and double checked. I took a load of tools, hoses, hose clips etc. While the guys at the shop were putting the car on the dyno, I had some time to take a look at the software for the dynapack. It is pretty straight forward, I was expecting it to be more complicated to be honest. I also got my laptop and headphones all set up ready to start.

First job is to dial in the dyno RPM with the engine speed, you do this by adjusting a gearing ratio in the software. Basically set the dyno to hold what it thinks is 2000rpm and then adjust the ratio until the engine is at 2000rpm. Since 4th is pretty much 1:1, no surprise that the setting came out to be about 4.3 (ie the final drive).

There are also some other vehicle and run setting that need looking at, obvious one is the rev limit. There are also settings that control how the dyno behaves when doing WOT runs, you can set the start rpm (2000rpm), how long to hold the start rpm (2 secs) and the pull duration (10 secs). So basically the dyno does some magic so the revs raise at a steady rate when doing WOT. Again not massively complicated.

Job one is to check/tune the lower rpm. First thing I notice is that my wideband is about 1.0 off the sensor at the dyno. So auto tuning in tuner studio goes out of the window. I start manually tuning, all the time with my det cans on. I basically had the VE, AFR, Spark tables all open as reference. Since I don't do this everyday, it was useful to have the target AFR table open to see what AFR I was aiming for at a give load site. The AFR was a whole load more steady then tuning my ITB engine, so I was please about that. It is pretty crazy holding you motor at 5000rpm on full boost while you dial in the fuel. You tend to just get up there and hold for a couple of seconds and then back off a bit, then go again. There is a lot to keep an eye on, temps, AFR, listen for knock and adjust stuff. Once I got up into the higher rpm ranges, I had to pause for about 30 seconds between loading the engine, just to cool things. This type of tuning is harder on the cooling system than WOT. The cooling system managed well and I did not see coolent temps above 90C and intake above 32C, so I am super happy with that, and I think my shrouding must have worked. I was a little worried about the cooling system, given that I have fabricated many of the parts from alloy, it is hard to know that you have a good solid none porous weld.

So far so good - next is setting up the boost controller, so that I can load the engine a given MAP and then do WOT pulls to tune the fuel and spark. First I set fuel and spark to safe setting and I did a WOT run on waste gate pressure to check my settings. All good, I think from memory it made about 160whp on that run. One thing I noticed is that waste gate pressure is not constant, was not really expecting this, not sure why - this is not my first FI car. Basically the boost increased all the way through the rev range, up to about 8psi at the limiter. I wanted to use closed loop boost control (close loop is where the ecu takes feedback from the MAP sensor to figure out what to do with the boost solenoid). I set the boost map to be just above 8psi and set the over boost to be just above that. So here goes the first attempt, I was expecting a boost spike, but it did more than spike, i just kept going into over boost cut. It did not seem to matter what setting I put in ECU, i got the same result. I move back to open loop - I was able to get some results with this, but still got increases at various parts of the rev range. At this point I am burning up time, so I decide that the boost controller will have to wait for another time or later and the best thing to do is focus on getting a good tune for waste gate pressure, so I can drive the car at least. The boost increasing through the revs will make the tuning a little harder, but the dyno graphs have rpm and MAP on them, so you can figure out what load site you are in.

At this point I start getting the odd miss fire. I checked the plugs and they look ok, the dude at the shop suggests using some BKR7 SE plugs gapped to 0.6mm rather then the iridium ones. He says he uses these over the iridium ones all the time and at $4 a plug, it is worth a shot. The guy at the shop suggests that the iridium ones get fouled up to easily. Unfortunately, still getting miss fires. In conversation with the owner of the shop, we check the coil dwell and it is 4ms, which is too high, it should be 2.0-2.5ms. I think I must have reloaded the diyautotune 250whp map again at some point and forgot to change the dwell - fried coils :cry:

Basically, it is home time. Driving onto the freeway, the coils seem to be ok and the car feels so much better to drive, the acceleration is so much smoother. I am probably not reving over 3500rpm, but the difference it very noticeable. As they say there is no substitute for a proper dyno tune.

I am cruising down the freeway and about 1km from exiting, the miss fires are starting to get worse, I am gradually slowing down - I don't really want to load the engine up with the miss fires beings so bad. 80kmh.......60kmh..... 50kmh I managed to get off the freeway and limp home through the suburbs at about 30kmh.

It is 3pm at this point, so it is time to get on the web and find some coils. I am wanting to compete on sunday in the clubs autotest, so I am a bit strapped for time. Best option I can come up with is some 2nd hand Toyota OEM coils from a wreckers. I collect those tomorrow and hopefully I have an option to go the evoluation R's dyno on saturday.

Mean time I need to get some base boost controller settings and do some set up of that. I also, need to think about my wideband - the current one is of no use :cry:

The End :D
NA6 B6T
Barbagallo Raceway : Long Track 67.394, Short Track 56.755


Return to “MX5 Garage Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 225 guests