Custard’s Tart

[Snowmotion]

That's a big win..

[Custardtart]

Yeah, I’ve been researching it for nearly a year. As well as the complexities I think one of the reasons it’s not common is there’s very few turbo’d NC’s right now and the Supercharged one’s all use ecutek. With the entry price coming down we’re seeing much more NC’s on track so I think we’ll see more stand-alone ecu conversions.
When I first raised questions on some of the US forums I got lots of abuse and no help which I think shows how entrenched the ecutek community are.

I think it's less of the community being entrenched and a matter of it not really being necisary to replace the ECU on a modern car when you are running the stock motor or something that can easily be controlled with the stock ECU like the 2.5l swaps.

I came from the Evo community before I got into MX5's and basically everyone just tunes on the standard ECU, this is the same for many other brands as well.

I'm sure some things like boost control would be better on a standalone but I'd speak to a reputable tuner before I even considered going to a standalone and made sure I had a really good reason to do it before I made the jump. A good indicator should be whether the big budget cars are running stock ECU's or not, if most are then I'd probably follow suit and use the money I saved from not going to a standalone paying for an expert to tune my car since trailblazing is expensive!

Thanks for that.
As far as my research has shown, there is really only ecutek and in Australia you’re really limited by who can tune it. I’d have to log files driving then send them to the authorised tuner and then use the files they send back. I think this is fine for a street car with occasional track use but at $1000 it’s doesn’t seem great value to me, especially when you add FI and if you ever want to move on you have nothing to sell so even if a stand-alone is $2000 it’s probably going to worth $1000 sexondhand so cost wise (you see my man maths at work ) it actually seems better value given the added functionality, ease and accuracy of tuning.
Like I said earlier, I’m not set either way so it’s good to get other people’s input and experience.

[Custardtart]

Just took the lip off the intake port, can’t see it making much difference but shouldn’t do any harm.
A few other observations from swapping parts from the 2.0l include the thermostat being almost identical and all the pulleys (except the crank pulley) being the same. Also the oil filter housing is almost identical too. I can’t see a need to swap any of these at this stage.

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[ozace]

Wonderful to see the job being done

[Dan]

Yeah, I’ve been researching it for nearly a year. As well as the complexities I think one of the reasons it’s not common is there’s very few turbo’d NC’s right now and the Supercharged one’s all use ecutek. With the entry price coming down we’re seeing much more NC’s on track so I think we’ll see more stand-alone ecu conversions.
When I first raised questions on some of the US forums I got lots of abuse and no help which I think shows how entrenched the ecutek community are.

I think it's less of the community being entrenched and a matter of it not really being necisary to replace the ECU on a modern car when you are running the stock motor or something that can easily be controlled with the stock ECU like the 2.5l swaps.

I came from the Evo community before I got into MX5's and basically everyone just tunes on the standard ECU, this is the same for many other brands as well.

I'm sure some things like boost control would be better on a standalone but I'd speak to a reputable tuner before I even considered going to a standalone and made sure I had a really good reason to do it before I made the jump. A good indicator should be whether the big budget cars are running stock ECU's or not, if most are then I'd probably follow suit and use the money I saved from not going to a standalone paying for an expert to tune my car since trailblazing is expensive!

Thanks for that.
As far as my research has shown, there is really only ecutek and in Australia you’re really limited by who can tune it. I’d have to log files driving then send them to the authorised tuner and then use the files they send back. I think this is fine for a street car with occasional track use but at $1000 it’s doesn’t seem great value to me, especially when you add FI and if you ever want to move on you have nothing to sell so even if a stand-alone is $2000 it’s probably going to worth $1000 sexondhand so cost wise (you see my man maths at work ) it actually seems better value given the added functionality, ease and accuracy of tuning.
Like I said earlier, I’m not set either way so it’s good to get other people’s input and experience.

$1,000 is truely a bargain to tune a forced induction car which was previously naturally aspirated. Tuning is to building a car like Tyres are to going fast on the track, it’s the last thing many people want to spend money on but it’s the most important.

Remember that even if a standalone is $2,000 You still need to tune it which will cost you a similar amount to tuning EcuTek if someone has done it before but if no-one has tuned your particular setup before and it’s FI you’ll need to either find a tuner that is willing to invest a ton of hours into getting the tune perfect or pay for those hours yourself which is prohibitively expensive as there is so much to tuning a car, especially a car that was previously naturally aspirated.

There is the basic stuff like rescaling for a larger MAF, MAP and injectors, then there is all of the normal tuning that needs to be done like tuning fuel and ignition maps on a dyno, then you need to do the things around the edges like getting the car to idle nicely with big cams and making sure the car runs well under partial throttle conditions. If someone has tuned your exact setup before they should have this development already which is incorporated into the tuning cost you pay with this then being verified by logging on the dyno or street but if you are paying for this to be done the first time it’s a large number of hours on a dyno.

After this is done you probably want someone to come with you to the track to tune the car or have someone look over the logs after you’ve taken it to the track as things like the load and temperatures that you experience on the track might differ to what you saw on the dyno requiring the retuning of the car. If you don't have someone with you at the track and it's their first time tuning an Turbo NC you probably want to have the ability to interprit logs well (make sure it isn't running too lean anywhere, overboosting or knocking too much).

My personal experience with a similar exercise is my Evo having a number of parts including a large turbo (GTX when they were new) and cams (Cosworth) which the tuner of my car had never seen before despite having done many Evo’s of the same model and being probably the most reputable shop in Aus, they said that they spent 10-15 hours on the dyno tuning it and then we did multiple iterations of the tune after driving it on the street + track which probably added up to another 5 hours of work for the tuner before other things went wrong like moving to a different fuel pump later which required another round of retuning. If I had to pay for all of that work on a normal hourly basis it would of been MANY thousands of dollars in Dyno time and the Tuners time.

Honestly it is a massive pain in the ass doing something for the first time and if you have the opportunity I’d speak to a tuner that’s done it before and put on parts that they’ll be able to tune easily or find a local shop that is willing to do some work for free in the interest of developing their skills on the NC as your wallet will thank you for it.

[Snowmotion]

It may be worth exploring some options from Cork Sport
https://corksport.com/mazda-cx7/2007-2012-cx7/cx7-power/

they seem to offer a lot of tuning option on the CX7 and other models with the 2.5 motor.

[Custardtart]

Lots of good stuff

Thanks Dan, some great info to think about

[greenMachine]

Pioneering is great - if successful. Great, but bloody expensive. If unsuccessful, you have at least underwritten the retirement plans of sundry tuners, fabricators and suppliers. Hence the need to talk to someone who has been down the path you are treading.

Having said that, and assuming you plan on keeping it registered, there is one route that may be worth exploring.

Being aware of the issues arising from the greater integration of the ECU compared to its predecessors, I have wondered about a 'back to the future' approach. Back in the mid(?) 90s, when things were somewhat primitive, there was a concept called PEMS - parallel engine management. Basically it left the stock ecu in place thinking that it was running the car, but in fact the injection and ignition was being run entirely independently by a separate aftermarket ecu. In the NC context, this would probably require the duplication of some sensors (if it was not feasible to separate their outputs for inputs to two ECUs). This might include TPS, IAT, MAF and crank/cam position. This is different to a 'piggyback', which intercepts and modifies certain values (eg IAT) before passing the modified values to the stock ECU.

However, to restate the threshold question, you need to be absolutely sure that reflashing the stock ecu will not do the job for you, before embarking on these adventures.



On preview: The Versatuner looks promising, it has FI tuning derived from other Mazda models. I would be asking if the values that FI might require will be supported in the MX5 ecu. Given the caveat about bricking the ecu, I would be buying all the necessary components from the vendor to minimise/eliminate that risk.

Dyno tuning is expensive - I probably paid ~$1k for a full tune on the racecar. Throw in $1.5k or so for the ecu, plus $500-1000 for a harness, I would budget for $4k and hope for enough left over to buy a coffee or two. Add to that the complications from the high level of integration and replacing the stock NC ecu could become a bottomless money pit.

[Daffy]

Pioneering is great - if successful. Great, but bloody expensive. If unsuccessful, you have at least underwritten the retirement plans of sundry tuners, fabricators and suppliers. Hence the need to talk to someone who has been down the path you are treading. :mrgreen

Here here!

[Magpie]

Here here!

Here here as well from me!

[Red_Bullet]

FWIW, there is a 2.5litre Supercharged NC around Brisbane aka Car 53, it's quite a work of art and has shown up at the last couple of track days after a long period of development.

[Custardtart]

FWIW, there is a 2.5litre Supercharged NC around Brisbane aka Car 53, it's quite a work of art and has shown up at the last couple of track days after a long period of development.

This one? Saw it last year, an absolute beast and fully engineered too!! Sub 60 round lakeside

[ozace]

Wow

[Red_Bullet]

Yes, that's the one. The owner might be able to provide info on ECU.

[Custardtart]

Engine’s ready to go back in now! Might get some time Friday or the weekend.
A big thanks to MX5 Mania for quickly shipping a replacement intake manifold gasket after I accidentally damaged mine. The local dealer quoted 4-6 weeks ffs!
Must admit, I’m quite apprehensive about trying to get the engine back in and lined up on the input shaft afterall the trouble I had getting it out!

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