Andrew's '93 NA6 - KL V6 swap

[plohl]

how'd you end up doing the suspension geometry? Did you just do 2D sketches to find your roll centers, camber change etc etc? It looks like the front roll centre is pretty high. Are you going to be using existing uprights or fabing your own? How much adjustability have you designed into it? (bulk pictures warrent bulk questions )

Nice work dude. Seriously wish i had the money/time/space/fab skills to do this sort of stuff.

[mitch_f1]

I would like this in my garage please ;)

Seriously though, amazing work here, and I am SUPER jealous of all your equipment!! Cannot wait to see the final finished project!!

[Beelzeboss]

FFFFF YEAH !!

Dann

Thanks Dann

How did I miss this amount of framework when I came by with Eren :S anyways I must see the progress in person! Are you working on the car most afternoons Andrew?

It's on its side behind the build table next to the MX. You're welcome to come round and have a look, on Sunday I should be working on it most of the day (hopefully putting the engine in for the last time!)

how'd you end up doing the suspension geometry? Did you just do 2D sketches to find your roll centers, camber change etc etc? It looks like the front roll centre is pretty high. Are you going to be using existing uprights or fabing your own? How much adjustability have you designed into it? (bulk pictures warrent bulk questions )

Nice work dude. Seriously wish i had the money/time/space/fab skills to do this sort of stuff.

Thanks Plohl, I'll try to answer all the questions but it was a while ago that I did all the design work.
I used a free program called WISHBONE.EXE and Solidworks to design the majority of the suspension.Wishbone calculates roll centres, camber change, bump steer, ackermann angle, castor, camber, steering axis inclination, etc. I read a few suspension books and just tried to get values that looked OK. Unfortunately due to the design of the uprights there is a lot of KPI, or steering axis inclination. I countered this by giving the system lots of castor angle. It should be a very light car so I hope the steering won't be too heavy, but all the camber curves look good.
The front roll centre looks high because the balljoint pivots aren't in the wishbones. If you look at the CAD picture you can see that a line drawn through the bottom pivots is dead horizontal at ride height (good) and the theoretical top arm (through the pivots) isn't as angled as it looks in the pics.
I designed the car to be built from a single donor, a 2002 Subaru Impreza RS, so I'm using the uprights from that. It requires a bracket to convert the uprights from macpherson strut to double wishbone and the geometry is not perfect. I'll just have to cross my fingers and hope it goes well. If I was to start it again I'd use MX-5 uprights instead, it would have simplified and improved the suspension no end.
The first wishbones will have very little adjustability built in, probably only camber, though I'll make them using a JIG so at a later date I can go back and make fully adjustable rose-jointed arms if I feel it's necessary.
Basically the car was designed to be a road car which looked like a le mans racer. I want it to be comfortable enough to use every day but still good on the race track. It should be fun on the track with its low weight and good power to weight ratio (hopefully less than 700kg and 180kw). I'm also using triple adjustable coilovers from a Yamaha R6 all round, rocker arm suspension up front, pushrods at the back and adjustable swaybars. That should allow me to fix any handling issues the car has from weird suspension setup, even though the camber curves and general behavior of the suspension looks alright in CAD.

I would like this in my garage please ;)

Seriously though, amazing work here, and I am SUPER jealous of all your equipment!! Cannot wait to see the final finished project!!

Thanks Mitch! Not long now until the first start, I'll make sure to get a video.

[plohl]

Thanks Plohl, I'll try to answer all the questions but it was a while ago that I did all the design work.
I used a free program called WISHBONE.EXE and Solidworks to design the majority of the suspension.Wishbone calculates roll centres, camber change, bump steer, ackermann angle, castor, camber, steering axis inclination, etc. I read a few suspension books and just tried to get values that looked OK. Unfortunately due to the design of the uprights there is a lot of KPI, or steering axis inclination. I countered this by giving the system lots of castor angle. It should be a very light car so I hope the steering won't be too heavy, but all the camber curves look good.
The front roll centre looks high because the balljoint pivots aren't in the wishbones. If you look at the CAD picture you can see that a line drawn through the bottom pivots is dead horizontal at ride height (good) and the theoretical top arm (through the pivots) isn't as angled as it looks in the pics.
I designed the car to be built from a single donor, a 2002 Subaru Impreza RS, so I'm using the uprights from that. It requires a bracket to convert the uprights from macpherson strut to double wishbone and the geometry is not perfect. I'll just have to cross my fingers and hope it goes well. If I was to start it again I'd use MX-5 uprights instead, it would have simplified and improved the suspension no end.
The first wishbones will have very little adjustability built in, probably only camber, though I'll make them using a JIG so at a later date I can go back and make fully adjustable rose-jointed arms if I feel it's necessary.
Basically the car was designed to be a road car which looked like a le mans racer. I want it to be comfortable enough to use every day but still good on the race track. It should be fun on the track with its low weight and good power to weight ratio (hopefully less than 700kg and 180kw). I'm also using triple adjustable coilovers from a Yamaha R6 all round, rocker arm suspension up front, pushrods at the back and adjustable swaybars. That should allow me to fix any handling issues the car has from weird suspension setup, even though the camber curves and general behavior of the suspension looks alright in CAD.

Thanks very much for the reply Andrew. Its sounds like you've done the best with what you have had to work with. Well done man, I know how long sort out suspension can take! It’s such a compromise!

Do you get much camber change in roll? I suppose you would get hardly any in bump. How much caster will you be running? As you said, it'll be pretty light and have nothing really at the front weigh it down; I agree it should be ok.

I have only worked with susprog, but from looking at wishbone.exe, it looks fairly similar. Now I just have to get it to work on 64bit!

Did you design much anti dive/ anti squat into the suspension? I know it can be very hard to judge the right amount.

[Beelzeboss]

Thanks very much for the reply Andrew. Its sounds like you've done the best with what you have had to work with. Well done man, I know how long sort out suspension can take! It’s such a compromise!

Do you get much camber change in roll? I suppose you would get hardly any in bump. How much caster will you be running? As you said, it'll be pretty light and have nothing really at the front weigh it down; I agree it should be ok.

I have only worked with susprog, but from looking at wishbone.exe, it looks fairly similar. Now I just have to get it to work on 64bit!

Did you design much anti dive/ anti squat into the suspension? I know it can be very hard to judge the right amount.

Thanks Plohl, I didn't put any anti drive/squat into the suspension. As for getting WISHBONE to work on 64 bit, have you tried dosbox? It's an MS-DOS emulator.

Hey Andrew

Would you be able to fabricate a balanced plenum?

Cheers

Dale

Hi Dale, not sure what a 'balanced' plenum is but I don't really feel confident in my aluminium welding/working skills to build a plenum and charge money for it. Sorry, maybe at a later date when my welding is a bit better I'll think about it. I'm also really busy trying to get my car finished, I'm sick and tired of borrowing my parents to drive to and from uni.
Cheers,
Andrew

[Beelzeboss]

It's where the main inlet to the plenum is in the centre of the four outlets opposed to the main inlet entering from the side. Think of the R33 GTS-T plenum compared to the MX-5's. It helps with all cylinders getting the same rate of airflow, if I am correct with my logic.

Ah OK, I get it now. Would there be enough room in an MX-5 engine bay for that type of manifold?

Bit of an update, I welded up the front section of the exhaust, put on the 36-1 trigger wheel and finished all the engine bay wiring, put a belt on the front of the engine, fitted up the new engine mounts and put it in the car. The engine now fits without hitting anything, the PPF lines up perfectly and there's more clearance on the alternator and exhaust.
The bad news is my exhaust hits the tunnel however it looks like an easy fix. The only bit which is hitting is downstream of the collector I made so serious modifications aren't required.

Engine mounts installed





Remote oil filter adapter installed



Engine with exhaust and belt fitted







And the engine in the car









I need to find some NB8A or NA8 rear brakes and a manual steering rack before I take it to be engineered. Does anyone have a manual rack I could borrow for a few weeks?

[NitroDann]

Exhaust fits nice.

What did you weld it with?

Dann

[plohl]

I have dosbox! didnt even think to use it.

The engine looks pretty badass in the car!

[Bizi]

Andrew, does Rhys or Emily have a manual steering rack in either of the NA6 cars they have in the Parts forum, selling bits?
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=51721
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=50821

Otherwise, Formaz, the wrecker of MX5s often on eBay?
May have a NA or NB and if an NB, possibly the brakes and maybe a TorSen.
They have a VVTI engine, complete for $1500 whhich seems to be a bargain and may have other stuff, if it helps.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/formaz34/m.h ... 4340.l2562

I can't recommend this person I have no idea what they have but the ad has been on gumtree sydney for a long time. Hope it helps.
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yagoona/ ... /346901908

I'll post any sightings in case it helps, but if you have the gear, then update us.

Love the pics!

[Beelzeboss]

Exhaust fits nice.

What did you weld it with?

Dann

Thanks Dann, I tigged it. I'm not very good at welding around a pipe, I haven't got the hang on changing the angle of the torch as I go round, hence a few of the welds look a bit dodgy.

It's where the main inlet to the plenum is in the centre of the four outlets opposed to the main inlet entering from the side. Think of the R33 GTS-T plenum compared to the MX-5's. It helps with all cylinders getting the same rate of airflow, if I am correct with my logic.

Ah OK, I get it now. Would there be enough room in an MX-5 engine bay for that type of manifold?

Yeah, should be plenty. Would also be beneficial to relocate the entire induction to the cold side to save re-routing the induction to the hot side.

No hot side or cold side with the V6, though.

I have dosbox! didnt even think to use it.

The engine looks pretty badass in the car!

Thanks plohl, it looks like it was meant for the car. It will look even better when it's running!

Andrew, does Rhys or Emily have a manual steering rack in either of the NA6 cars they have in the Parts forum, selling bits?
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=51721
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=50821

Otherwise, Formaz, the wrecker of MX5s often on eBay?
May have a NA or NB and if an NB, possibly the brakes and maybe a TorSen.
They have a VVTI engine, complete for $1500 whhich seems to be a bargain and may have other stuff, if it helps.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/formaz34/m.h ... 4340.l2562

I can't recommend this person I have no idea what they have but the ad has been on gumtree sydney for a long time. Hope it helps.
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/yagoona/ ... /346901908

I'll post any sightings in case it helps, but if you have the gear, then update us.

Love the pics!

Thanks Bizi, I haven't done much looking for the parts yet since engineering is still a way off but I'll definitely check out those sources.

As for the car I don't really have any updates, though I've started to convert the 52mm radiator to double pass so that both the inlet and outlet are on the top. This will really simplify the coolant hose layout. I'm pretty sure the 52mm core will still have enough flow when divided in half.
Tomorrow I'm planning on making the bracket for the oil filter relocation, the coil pack, the airbox, IACV, and all the little vacuum fittings. That should knock over most of the minor parts leaving just the exhaust, coolant re-route and throttle cable before the car is complete.

[Beelzeboss]

Today I made the bracket which holds the oil filter/oil cooler assembly. It fits to factory threaded holes on the frame rail. The only place I could fit it was between the engine and the radiator. I'll run one radiator fan on the drivers side and hopefully that will be enough, if not I'll fit a pusher fan on the drivers side. The radiator is about 3 times the size of the standard MX-6 rad so I think it will be OK with 1 fan.











I'm also modifying the radiator to be a double pass rather than single pass. The reason for this is it puts both the inlet and outlet on top of the radiator which will really simplify the radiator hose layout.





Basically that's a divider for the top tank, then I weld up the bottom radiator outlet and put a new one on the passenger side at the top. This makes the coolant go down through one half the radiator, across the bottom tank, then upwards through the other half of the radiator.

[Beelzeboss]

Today I pretty much finished the coolant re-route on the engine. The stock setup has one of the radiator outlets at the rear of the engine (right hand side when in the MX-6). This isn't ideal but luckily there's *just* enough space for a new coolant pipe to exit at the front of the engine. I re-used the standard thermostat housing to simplify engineering.





I've also been thinking about where to fit the IACV for ages. It was originally located on the bottom of the throttle body but there's no room there anymore. I finally settled on mounting it to the valve cover as it was the only place close to the manifold where I could find enough room.





You can see in this pic how the inlet and outlet for the IACV pass either side of the stock plug lead.



Dipstick finished



Then I put almost everything I've made so far on the engine to check for any clearance/interference issues (and take a few pics ). The pod filter will be enclosed. I wanted to keep the factory airbox but there just isn't enough room.













And finally a shot showing the bonnet clearance. There's actually more clearance than the pic shows as the bonnet bows upwards in the middle.



Here's a (hopefully) exhaustive list of everything left:
-Rear section of exhaust
-Finish off coolant re-route
-Throttle cable
-Intake piping and pod enclosure
-EGR
-Ignition coil bracket
-Vacuum fittings
-Weld radiator
-Hoses
--Coolant
--Fuel
--Vacuum
--Heater

[Jace]

good thing you painted those valve covers at the start!

[Bizi]

When do you estimate you will start it? You should get a few people over - if you're confident. It will be special.

Once you get to that stage is it a case of getting it all engineered?

B.

[Beelzeboss]

good thing you painted those valve covers at the start!

I probably should have waited, but it made the build pics look better

When do you estimate you will start it? You should get a few people over - if you're confident. It will be special.

Once you get to that stage is it a case of getting it all engineered?

B.

I hope to start it sometime this coming week, there's really very few things left to do before it's finished. After the first start I just have to do the intake piping, throttle cable and a bracket for the coil pack and it will be done.
I might have people over for the second start Knowing my luck the first start will be a non-start due to faulty wiring, flat battery, leaks, etc. but keep your fingers crossed it all works out.
Once it's driveable I plan to get a pink slip and an unregistered vehicle permit to go to the weighbridge, emissions test facility, and the engineer. We'll see how that works out, I'm not sure on all the details about UVP's.

This morning I finished the radiator double pass mod. I'm getting better at TIG welding aluminium and it all went pretty smoothly, apart from a few burns. Stupid aluminium conducting heat so well
First I had to flare out the new radiator pipe. I made a tool from an old pair of pliers.







And that went really well, as you can see from this pic



I had to put the pliers in a vice to get enough force and they sort of broke a little bit.
So I made a new version which I just realised I didn't take any pics off, but it worked. Here's the finished product.







Also you can see here I welded on a new fitting to the engine coolant pipe.



That solves any problems I could have had with radiator hoses, I just need a pair of 45 degree bends.