Haltech Elite Megathread

[gslender]

I think the biggest issue facing MS3 is that most people don't realize that the MS3Pro range is significantly better than what you've seen in MS2 (much like how modern injection/spark is better than carby/dizzy) - if most of want you know of MegaSquirt is before MS3X, then you probably don't know enough. The MS3X kit (which is based on the MS2 main board) is a really complex and error prone electronics DIY kit that is nothing like an MS3Pro or MS3 PNP Pro. They've done a very bad job of marketing (typcial of engineers I guess) and this has confused people into thinking that anything with the word "MegaSquirt" = complex electronic kits that should be sold by Jaycar. They aren't. The current range of MS3 Pro equipment is almost identical to an Elite series from a hardware point of view. The software/firmware is identical from MS3Pro and MS3X, but often there is so much compatibility to older generation MS2 firmware that most fail to know about the extra features and fail to learn beyond what they already knew.

Literally the last MX5 I tuned is a flex fuelled MS3 built by Rev. So while I havnt used a current MS3Pro, I can only assume similarity?

Can't say as a MS3X kit built by someone isn't a MS3 Pro and so I can't really tell you. Rev has a history of modifying the ECU electronics and firmware, so not sure what it would be that you looked at. Also, the MS3 PNP Pro's are more like an Adaptronic plug-n-play ECU designed to support a particular model MX5 with all the features for AC/Alternator/Accessories etc available and connected to the OEM loom - the support for that would be via USA and DIY, and if you are willing to work with them during the right hours and timezones, it can actually be fairly good, but yeah, never going to be as good as talking to someone in Sydney on the phone at any time of the day for as long as you need.

As a good example for the extra tables being useable, on the MS when I tuned flex fuel it could do a non linear flex fuel algorithm, however it had no provision for the ecu tuning that, I would have literally had to dyno the car 6 times with different fuel blends manually poured in. Is that the case for the pro?

If I'm understanding you, the question is more about TunerStudio offering VEAL that works with E85 tables... it does, but obviously you'll require the correct/latest version of TunerStudio for that. I think the core thing is that most engines tuned on E85 don't need complex non-linear tables. Mine doesn't - and it starts cold and runs hot, idles and has race cams both on E85 and PULP - regardless of what ratio is in the tank. I don't use the non-linear tables to get that to work. Most of the MS3 users don't need that either, but the option is there if you do need it, but yep, you can get TunerStudio working to tune that way - if you need advice then talk to the developer (Phil Tobin) who is very approachable and happy to answer questions like that.

What options for engine protection does the MS3 pro have? Does it have long term automatic timing trims? Will it drive the OEM scantool fault codes?

Limp Mode exists for engine protection. It has long/short term automatic fuel trims (I assume you mean fuel not timing as how do you determine spark advance/retard??), and yes it can output full data on CAN, input information and act on CAN or drive ODB2 so it would depend on your needs here.

Genuine questions because I have no idea based on the few MS3's Ive tuned. A lot of these decisions comes down to "It says it can but who has done one on my model and what support is available?".

A lot of this requires reading the documentation, which is approaching 500 pages so I can appreciate if you feel it would be easier to just "call some guy" and have him tell you how to do it. I'm not of that view and feel that learning isn't telling - kinda like a teach yourself to fish vs just buying fish.

Remember how many phone calls and emails I made to you looking for help because I cant call the guys who make MS?

Well, I'm sure if you are looking for a local person to call during the day on MegaSquirt then yep, you will struggle, but from what I've seen, getting good knowledge on Adaptronic or Haltech can be equally hard if you don't have the person to call or know of a good tuner. You have to invest time/effort and using the documentation and having a MS3 that you use yourself would be the first step. Then being active on the MSExtra forums would be another element, and finally, you can always call the guys in the USA during their awake hours (and for someone like you, that might actually be ok as you can work at night on the issues and implement/test during the day).

End of the day, fact is, getting a car sorted for the track is actually really, really easy. In fact it is almost 10x easier than getting a car sorted for smooth street work. The number of outputs and accessory controls, adjustments for temperature and conditions is staggering. It takes OEMs years to perfect a car and they have 100% control over the firmware and wiring of the vehicle - they employ a team of Electronic Engineers and have all the testing equipment and time to do things correctly.

Most of the aftermarket ECUs are primarily used in the Because Race Car space, and getting them to work like an OEM would work isn't always the #1 priority of the developers and manufactures of the devices - doesn't mean it can't be done, just that you must be realistic about what you are expecting.

If you are getting excellent results with the Elite and don't mind paying the premium, then yep, go for it... but it isn't the only option out there, and there are better options per $$$ if you are willing to invest the time (and I don't personally think any ECU other there allows you to avoid that).

G

[NitroDann]

I would love to give a PnP Pro a go in an SE application and see how it stacks up, however the issue is finding a guy who wants to be a test pilot on a task which is much more complicated then getting an MS2 to run a race car. A single day of messing around costs more than the price difference on a system which I currently know gets amazing results.

If someone brings me an SE and a pnp Pro I would definitely not try and talk them into a Haltech, however I know that there is no place in Australia that you can walk into and get guaranteed spectacular results with one.

The Elite has short and long term -timing- trims, and its VEAL system works internally while the owner drives the car home, not just with a laptop plugged in and a person watching over it.

It uses the knock windowing and remembers when knock occurred just like an OEM ecu does.

Dann

[gslender]

It uses the knock windowing and remembers when knock occurred just like an OEM ecu does.

MS3 has that feature too, and relying on that for timing trim is really, really bad. Very few engines (including MX5) produce decent results with timing set near knock. In fact if you are tuning spark by that method, then you're probably leaving HP on the floor and seeing poor fuel economy.

BTW - the OEM doesn't remember it, it just make a temporary adjustment until the fuel quality returns and then sets it back to factory tune. This is an engine protection feature for poor fuel, not a tuning technique for adjusting timing.

This happens a lot - you can build an ECU with all sorts of capabilities. Something that detects unicorn farts and adjusts timing and fuel accordingly, but does it actually produce a better result? Do you know of any real tests done that compare this method against what is more commonly and proven to work? And most importantly, just because you can send the customer home with the fuel/timing maps incomplete and the ECU fills in the gaps..... should you???

But hey, if you're getting good "I'm a happy customer" results then that's at least something to be happy about.

[NitroDann]

It uses the knock windowing and remembers when knock occurred just like an OEM ecu does.

BTW - the OEM doesn't remember it, it just make a temporary adjustment until the fuel quality returns and then sets it back to factory tune. This is an engine protection feature for poor fuel, not a tuning technique for adjusting timing.

It does this too.

And most importantly, just because you can send the customer home with the fuel/timing maps incomplete and the ECU fills in the gaps..... should you???

But hey, if you're getting good "I'm a happy customer" results then that's at least something to be happy about.

I think you are implying things that I am not. It simply has short and long term timing trims for many of its maps, It has timing trims for coolant and air temp also, stuff you cant or dont test for a customer, like what happens if you hit boost and coolant is 110c? Well the knock sensor pulls timing after it detects it, if it happens again then it adjusts the timing so that the third time the customer boosts it when its hot the timing is pulled.

I dont think that a megasquirt couldnt get pretty great results in this application, but I dont know anyone who has, and I do know that the Elite series has the best hardware and software of any locally supported ecu.

Dann

[sailaholic]

I disagree the elite has the best hardware, I think you will find the motec m1 has that one covered.


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[NitroDann]

Absolutely, however the context of the thread is, and let me quote myself: "people would consider fitting to an MX5".

This isnt supposed to be a pissing match, its supposed to be "Hey guys there's this really powerful hardware made in Sydney and Ive got really superb results with it, here are my experiences.".

Dann

[sailaholic]

And my comment was made in that context. A Motec is expensive but comes with a number of benefits depending on your use of the car.

If I had a do over I'd have gone motec rather then the adaptronic.


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[gslender]

Well the knock sensor pulls timing after it detects it, if it happens again then it adjusts the timing so that the third time the customer boosts it when its hot the timing is pulled.

That's fair enough. If it has that complexity of automatic adjustment/trim of timing tables with coolant and boost as a 3rd / 4th dimension, and it manages this for you, then that's great. The MS3 and most other ECUs have this less the automatic adjustment/trim - I can put permanent tables into the MS3 that manages spark under boost when coolant goes above a set limit. Something you'd setup anyway and probably not something I'd want the ECU just changing without me knowing anyway.

I'm just saying that just because it has that feature, doesn't mean it is a good thing. It could also make coffee and tell the time too... but that doesn't mean you should pay more for one. Complexity != Better.

No doubt its a cool bit of hardware, and if you are getting good results and consistently then that's great. There are other options, and you're admitting you've not fairly tried them... and not having one yourself to tinker with is probably the key issue.

I take it you've got an Elite on one of your own cars then?

G

[madjak]

FWIW, I've found the Haltech support to be excellent. I'd like to think I'm fairly good with googling and resolving issues myself, but the two times where I had exhausted all leads online and I called Haltech, the issue was resolved within 5 mins. In both cases the problems were caused by a very simple but common mistakes which tend to be the hardest to find answers for on forums.

In terms of capabilities, most ECU's are suitable for a MX5 build. We're not doing anything that crazy in our cars that requires much of the advanced features of the expensive ECUs. The turbo street cars that require a bit more finesse and really that's where the more advanced ECU's like the Elite/MS3P come in. It doesn't have to be a pissing contest to see which is better for the $. It comes down to the familiarity with the tuner or whoever is setting up the electronics so that time isn't wasted on resolving issues. Resolving an issue can be an expensive exercise if your paying someone to fix it.

More ECU choices are better in the end and I think it's valuable for all that NitroDann is showing such excellent results with the Haltech.

[Magpie]

NitroDann for his post

madjak. Since meeting the Haltech people at WTAC I have nothing but positive things to say about them with respect to customer support if by email, phone or face to face.

[NitroDann]

Grant I drive a Diahatsu, I've just fitted an Elite to a couple of NB's and everyone who has dríven them on my basemap has been exceptionally impressed with its manners, and Ive been very impressed with its features and how it handles them.

Also as has been said, you get a guy on the phone who helped design the ecu, and every employee is exceptionally patient and kind.

Dann

[NitroDann]

And my comment was made in that context. A Motec is expensive but comes with a number of benefits depending on your use of the car.

If I had a do over I'd have gone motec rather then the adaptronic.


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Id love to hear your opinion, genuinely. Let me tell you my experience with the adaptronic.

-Great price
-Pretty easy install on most mx5 models
-Lots of tuners know it
-Cars always seem to feel pretty good, the firmware seems to runs the car well.
-Hard to use software and not enough support
-There is a fair lack of flexibility, lots of 'settings options, level 1, 2 or 3' rather than big tables with tuneability. This is a pro in some cases.

What are your experiences?

Dann

[gslender]

Cool no probs - to keep the subject on track, so what's the real price of a Haltech 1500 installed ie it looks like $2,245 plus you then have to wire it up with a OEM socket (what are you doing, gutting OEM ecus?) and you'll need a MAP sensor etc is that about right? What else is needed?

Does the software work on Mac and PC Windows and how does it log stuff (onboard, if so how big etc) ?

What about alternator control and other things that need to be dríven by high current drivers (does it support that or are you using external relays) ??

G

[madjak]

Probably need a wideband O2 as well. The Haltech one is awesome but it's not exactly cheap... another $400.

Is there any real reason to upgrade from a PS1000 to an Elite for a track only car? Are there any new features that are worth having, other than additional inputs / outputs, that would affect performance, reliability or engine safety / diagnostics out on the track? From what I've read on your posts, most of the benefits are in street drivability.

[NitroDann]

Cool no probs - to keep the subject on track, so what's the real price of a Haltech 1500 installed ie it looks like $2,245 plus you then have to wire it up with a OEM socket (what are you doing, gutting OEM ecus?) and you'll need a MAP sensor etc is that about right? What else is needed?

The ecu it self with a patch harness is 2500 odd.

Does the software work on Mac and PC Windows and how does it log stuff (onboard, if so how big etc) ?

I have no idea about Mac, and I have only logged to a laptop, Im not sure if it does on board logging.

What about alternator control and other things that need to be dríven by high current drivers (does it support that or are you using external relays) ??

Nah it plugs in and everything is exceptionally OEM like with the exception of the stock boost controller, but like adaptronic, the reason it needs replacing is because it sucks, not because the ECU cant drive it. It controls the alternator exceptionally well now that I have the settings perfected.

G