TEIN Flex Z - A good choice for a street NA?

[Skifey]

Hey hey fellow enthuiasts! Hope you're all doing swell!

So recently I picked up a set of Enkei RPF1's (15x8) for next to nothing and I couldn't be happier. They're wrapped in 205/55/R15 and my prior set was 205/50/R15 (weird I know). See the picture attached for quick look The only problem is that they're rubbing like all hell under braking or turning and I reached breaking point 2 days ago when I took it in for a wheel alignment only to find that my rear passenger shock is leaking. I've decided I need to do something about it and so I've done my research and I wanted as many of your opinions as I could get because what I've found on the net regarding the TEIN Flex Z for an NA mx5 is limited and somewhat conflicting. So here goes! Some background first for those wanting to know the full story.

= Car Background =
Bought the car around a year ago from an older fellow who appeared to love the car well and truly. With the car he gave me spare shocks and springs but no full sets of 4. At the moment it's sitting on king springs - no idea as to the length or rate - on all 4 corners with bilstein shocks up the rear and KYB AGX shocks up front. He DID track it occasionally although in his own words, he wasn't that great at it so he didn't beat it's head against a wall. Regardless, the shocks and springs no doubt have definitely seen some distance and time. I'd guesstimate a minimum of 4 years on each shock and spring. I daily drive the car and I've never taken it to the track myself although I would like to eventually on the odd occasion and I've definitely come to enjoy doing the mountain runs with the current stiff suspension. So I'm not overly fussed about the ride being 'a little harsh for a DD'.

= Questions, Queries, Problems and more of my nonsense =
(I'll list them in order of logic and reasoning)
1. The rear shock is leaking so I need to replace it. Do I buy 1 Bilstein shock? Do I buy a set of 2 for the rear? Do I buy a complete set of 4 or do I just throw it all out and get the whole shebang and buy a coilover set? I have no idea! I figure I can justify the upgrade because I can raise/lower the front/rear and thereby stop the rubbing although at the same time I'm obviously a human and want to keep funds in mind. Budget vs effectiveness, thats my question here, whats the best decision?
2. From what I understand my current setup is not exactly poor or 'budget', moreso just old and worn. Is my current setup with Bilstein/KYB Shocks and King springs superior or inferior in terms of straight purchase value to a coilover like the TEIN Flex Z? In other words, am I actually downgrading by switching over to coilovers regardless of the age of my current system?
3. And finally, the question of the hour! If coilovers ARE a good idea, is the TEIN Flex Z a good choice? I've found them here a hell of a lot cheaper than some of the higher spec coilovers: https://www.rhdjapan.com/tein-flex-z-co ... -nb8c.html

Here's the others I've looked at with rough pricing after shipping:
TEIN Street Basis Z ($700-800) - everyone says they're the budget option you'll regret. No adjustability and manufactured in China.
TEIN Street Advance Z ($900-1200) - similar to the Basis although with damper adjustability and still made in China. Mixed reviews on this one.
Megan Racing ($750-950) - Supposedly there's better options for the money your spending (like the BC or TEIN) and alot of people have complained about build quality.
Yellowspeed ($1250) - Apparently used by alot of mx5 track enthusiasts. Again though, some people bag them to the days.
V-Maxx (???) - I know next to nothing
BC Racing ($1400-1600) - And I know next to nothing again.

Either way, I know it's a big ass thread that I've left here so I apologize for the lengthy read, I just really need some help and advice here. What do you think I should do? Am I being dumb? Should I just replace the shock? Should I buy the TEIN Flex Z? Should I just roll my guards and raise it up to stop the rubbing? Any advice on anything at all would be appreciated on my behalf at this point!

Thanking you all in advance! Your all awesome!

[3gress]

It would probably be best to replace all four corners at the same time.I have used the BC Base level type V1 coilovers with good results. I am not what you'd call an aggressive driver, have a significant lumbar spinal injury and frequent less than well paved roads for the most part. I'd look into replacing the rear top hats with aftermarket offerings that increase the rear suspension travel.
I think forum member magpie uses a higher spec BC coilover, either BR or the ER external reservoir type.
If going with tein I'd be patient enough to afford the best of their offerings. MCA also offer some well reviewed coilovers with variants to suit intended use and I've heard firsthand of their commendable after sales service. Probably my pick of the options outlined above.
Currently i am stuck with a set of lowly purple D2 coilovers waiting for the day my project rolls out into the sun again though it looks as though actually driving the thing is wishful thinking at present.

[Luke]

OK you have a few problems and not enough info provided.
205/55/15 is simply to larger rolling diameter tyre for a NA. If you want to stop rubbing, go back to 205/50/15.
Also what offset are you Enkei's?
That could be contributing to the rubbing as well.
Chances are with 15x8's you will have to roll your guards regardless.
Wheel alignment can also help with guard clearance. Have you had it done? To help clearance you need to go for more negative camber. More inside tyre wear though.

If it is mainly a road car with occasional track use I would be looking at a good shock and spring combo.
You could probably keep the King springs if you are happy with the current height and stiffness.
Koni and Bilstein always get mentioned for shocks. Both cost $$$.
Having Bilstein in the rear and KYB up front is just wrong!!! If you plan to drive it hard I wouldn't be running different front to rear shock combos.

With the car he gave me spare shocks and springs but no full sets of 4

You mentioned you have spares, but did not say what you have spare??? So what do you have?

If this is your daily and you may only do the occasional Track day, I would steer clear of Tein Flex Z.
I have Tein Street Flex in my NB, which essentially is the older version of Flex Z. Much the same specs, just the shocks were rebuildable.
They both have Pillow ball upper mounts, and no rubber mounting pads between the springs and perches.
So they are metal on metal or some other hard material. This gives much more precise handling and feedback compared to other coilovers that have rubber mounts.
It also provides lots of harsh feedback and vibrations to the driver as well as extra noise.
This is a racing product. Don't believe he marketing of it being a street product.
Don't confuse harshness with stiff springs.

If you do go down the coilover path, do not buy one of those cheap crappy designs that use the spring perch to raise or lower the car. Ie Tein Basic.
You want a set where the height adjustment is independent to the spring. Ie Tein Flex Z.

[Lokiel]

Of the coilovers you listed, BC Racing ($1400-1600) BR series are the only ones I'd recommend, they're one of the best budget coilovers and made in Taiwan NOT China (Taiwan is NOT China, Gigabyte and ASUS the two Tier-1 motherboard manufacturers are based in Taiwan, as well as some of the best computer memory companies so they produce quality hardware - the BC Racing installation instructions however are classic "Chinglish" jibberish, random English words in sentences that make no sense.

I believe there are a set in the For Sale section.

Also, 205/55/15s are too tall for NA/NBss

[Magpie]

Yes I do use BC Racing ER's that have been modified so that the front external canisters are remote mounted.

My BC Racing ER's have been dyno tested and they are matched pairs, this is a good thing! When you consider that this is one feature that separates the MCA's. Just looking on the MCA website now and they now offer 7 types, however only 2 with custom valving options. BC Racing offer custom valving on all its models.

Lets not get into custom valving as this will require flame suits and no agreement will be reached. Suffice to say if you need custom valving then you already know what you want...

Lets look at an off the shelf purchase.

1. Spring rates - this is what will have the greatest impact on ride. Springs will compress based on the force applied to them and unless controlled will bounce back (simple explanation). Therefore the higher the spring rate the more force that is needed to get them to compress. The choice of spring rates will impact 'ride' quality. Harsh does not correlate with 'sporty'.
   
   Track based - if the track is smooth and you have high downforce then you would consider high spring rates. A bumpy track may require a change in spring rates. Whilst most of us do not have the budget to have springs for each track it is possible to come up with a compromise setup and tweak the dampers.
   
   Road based - softer spring rates will give a more pleasant ride, however you do not want it that soft that the car feels like it is wallowing.
   
2. Dampers - these control how the energy is released/absorbed by the spring, hence valving is important. Just as important as the valving is the shape of the damper curve for high/low speed as well as how much change the 'knob/s' make.
   
   Do you want separate rebound/bump settings (2 way adjustable) or 4 way adjustable (bump, rebound, low speed, high speed). 4 way adjustable will not be cheap.
   
   Track - no comments here as this is a very individual choice and will only end up in the use of napalm
   Road Based - you want damping that matches the roads that you will be running on, again a compromise. The more adjustment does not mean better especially if the adjustment makes little difference. You need to see the dyno plots for this.
   

The rubbing...
this is more than likely caused by incorrect damper length. I refuse to put the flame suit on and digress into height adjustment by spring perch is the better method (which it is, albeit longer to do) or lower collar (which is easier but still not correct).

A few bits of advice:

1. MX5's are very sensitive to increase in unsprung weight
2. Make sure you have an alignment performed before making any changes. You may find the alignment fixes some of the 'problems.
3. Most track people in MX5's use stock sway bars (with adjustable end links)
4. Tyre pressures will also effect the ride quality

[93_Clubman]

bilstein shocks up the rear and KYB AGX shocks up front.
The rear shock is leaking so I need to replace it. Do I buy 1 Bilstein shock? Do I buy a set of 2 for the rear? Do I buy a complete set of 4

There are at least 3 different Bilstein dampers that have been used from the Mazda factory in ADM NA & NB MX5s: NA8 Clubman yellow Bilstein, NB8A 10AE yellow Bilstein (slightly different to the NA8 Clubman type), & the NB8D SE silver Bilstein. Then there were also several JDM LE models over the years that ran Bilsteins.
So if buying 1, it needs to be correct - that said the NA early yellow Bilstein is supposedly not available new, but the US seem to have some. Alternatively you could get the dampers rebuilt for under $200 (each), but as said above ideally you should be running 4 of the same brand/model, so you'll need another 2 Bilsteins for the front if you take this option. Btw, unless the 2 Bilsteins you're currently running are the aftermarket PSS9s, then reckon they are many years older than 4 - but nothing wrong with that as long as they're not leaking they're probably still 90% approx effective according to Heasmans the NSW Bilstein agent.

[Skifey]

You guys really don't disappoint! Seriously thank you to everyone that's already put their 2c in - really appreciate it!

Quick updates just to clarify: Yes I did have my wheel alignment done but I noticed discrepancies between my left and right sides even after it was done. I'll likely upload the report sheet once I'm home if that's helpful? Rubbing is still very much present and unchanged. And I'm thinking to roll my guards regardless of where I go from here and the guy from Bridgestone recommend I delete the front inner wheel guard because that's where my wheels are rubbing during turns. Poor idea?

If going with tein I'd be patient enough to afford the best of their offerings. MCA also offer some well reviewed coilovers with variants to suit intended use and I've heard firsthand of their commendable after sales service. Probably my pick of the options outlined above.

Define the "best of their offerings" in regards to the mx5 for me because I'm completely new to these products. Also, is MCA australian based as in Murray Coote Automotive - the blue ones? I've heard nothing but great things about them but I actually called them up yesterday and they said the ones I ought to be getting are around the 2k mark which is beyond what I'm willing to spend.

OK you have a few problems and not enough info provided.
205/55/15 is simply to larger rolling diameter tyre for a NA. If you want to stop rubbing, go back to 205/50/15.
Also what offset are you Enkei's?

My apologies Luke - what other info can I provide? Enkei's are +28mm offset. I did originally try to go for a 205/50/15 tyre but apparently they're a really abnormal size and I couldn't find a suitable tyre in that size. I could however downsize to a 195/50/15 though, is this the way to go?

You mentioned you have spares, but did not say what you have spare??? So what do you have?

I have a set of front Koni's and a set of front Bilsteins I believe, unfortunately no rears

If this is your daily and you may only do the occasional Track day, I would steer clear of Tein Flex Z.

Why? Specifically I mean. Is it because it's too 'harsh' for daily driving?

If you do go down the coilover path, do not buy one of those cheap crappy designs that use the spring perch to raise or lower the car. Ie Tein Basic.
You want a set where the height adjustment is independent to the spring. Ie Tein Flex Z.

Nah I've got no intention of buying the Tein Basic, was moreso just showing that I have looked at options. At the moment I think I'm debating between the Tein Flex Z, BC Racing (no idea which specific coilover), MCA's (if I can find them for a better pricepoint) and Yellowspeed racing (because no ones mentioned them yet so I don't want to rule them out)

BC Racing ($1400-1600) BR series are the only ones I'd recommend

I had a look in the For Sale section and I definitely would've jumped on them although they've already sold thanks for the heads up though! Is there anywhere to buy the BC Racing BR series for around the 1k mark or am I stuck paying 1400?

Suffice to say if you need custom valving then you already know what you want...

Yup I have no shame in saying I have literally zero idea about custom valving in regards to suspension so I'll leave that one right there haha! And I'm also not interested in forking out for features like 4 way adjustability unless it just comes with. Thanks for the few quick bits and bobs of information - proper informational that was!

I should probably just clarify in general for everyone that's trying to help me out here; It's my daily and before the discovery of the leaking shock and the introduction of wheel rub I had no intention of changing anything. I like its stiffness for the street (if the bilsteins and KYBs I've got can even be considered stiff I don't know because I have no basis for comparison!) and love how it sits around corners. I don't want to spend 1500, I'm simply just not keen on the spend. 1000? Sure, I'll fork out 1000 for an upgrade if it's worth it but at the same time I understand that cheap goods are never good and good goods are never cheap. If I'm in over my head and you all think I should be forking out the 1400 for a better set, please let me know. I can appreciate brutal and blunt honesty and quite frankly I'm confident you all know a lot more than me so I'm trusting your opinions!

Either way, at this stage based on what's been said I think we can narrow it down to these... I think...
- Tein Flex Z
- BC Racing BR series
- MCA
- Yellowspeed

[Luke]

You guys really don't disappoint! Seriously thank you to everyone that's already put their 2c in - really appreciate it!

Quick updates just to clarify: Yes I did have my wheel alignment done but I noticed discrepancies between my left and right sides even after it was done. I'll likely upload the report sheet once I'm home if that's helpful? Rubbing is still very much present and unchanged. And I'm thinking to roll my guards regardless of where I go from here and the guy from Bridgestone recommend I delete the front inner wheel guard because that's where my wheels are rubbing during turns. Poor idea?

OK you have a few problems and not enough info provided.
205/55/15 is simply to larger rolling diameter tyre for a NA. If you want to stop rubbing, go back to 205/50/15.
Also what offset are you Enkei's?

My apologies Luke - what other info can I provide? Enkei's are +28mm offset. I did originally try to go for a 205/50/15 tyre but apparently they're a really abnormal size and I couldn't find a suitable tyre in that size. I could however downsize to a 195/50/15 though, is this the way to go?

It would be good to know what they set the camber to. The more negative it is the better your guard clearance will be.
If you just gave the car to an alignment place and didn't give them any specific specs they would have done the typical road car alignment which does have different left and right figures to deal with the fact that most roads slope to the left. They most likely would have also only adjusted the toe settings.

If you remove the inner shields as they suggested you will get dents from debris hitting the inside on your front guards. Looks ugly when this happens.

Also, are you only rubbing on the front liners?
Why roll your guards if it is only the liners?
I'm surprised with that offset rim you are not rubbing on the steel guards themselves.


The offset of the rim was most important information that was lacking.
+28 with an 8 inch rim and 205/55/15 tyres would not even clear on a NB for the front guards shields. No way on a NA.
The problem is the rolling diameter is to large. 205/55/15 is 606mm.
Keep in mind that the original 14 inch 185/60/14 were only 576mm and this is what the factory calibrated the speedo for.
195/50/15 is really close to the original rolling diameter at 575mm but is not a good idea on a 8 inch rim.
The best compromise is 205/50/15 which has a 586mm rolling diameter. The size is less common, but tyres to exist.
You could also even try the less common 225/45/15 size. 583mm diameter. Width may be a problem on a NA though.

You mentioned you have spares, but did not say what you have spare??? So what do you have?

I have a set of front Koni's and a set of front Bilsteins I believe, unfortunately no rears

I would question why the original owner had the KYB's fitted when they had Bilsteins available to match the rears.
I would be weary of them in that case, same goes for the Noni's.

If this is your daily and you may only do the occasional Track day, I would steer clear of Tein Flex Z.

Why? Specifically I mean. Is it because it's too 'harsh' for daily driving?

Yes, as I said above.
They both Pillow ball upper mounts unlike normal shocks and springs which have a rubber upper mount. There are also no rubber mounting pads between the springs and perches.
So they are metal on metal or some other hard material. This gives much more precise handling and feedback compared to other coilovers that have rubber mounts.
It also provides lots of harsh feedback and vibrations to the driver as well as extra noise.
You feel every little bump in the road and it has nothing to with the spring rates. It is because of the metal on metal contacting parts giving direct feedback into the chassis of the car.

[3gress]

[quote="Skifey"
- Tein Flex Z
- BC Racing BR series
- MCA[/quote]

More or less in order of what I'd choose right there.
The pillow ball mounts would certainly reduce the length of time i could drive the car due to shitty permanent injuries but wasn't that much of a concern with my old BCs. Any time however short spent driving my car is worth the punishment that comes with it!
Improving on the already impressive handling characteristics of an mx5 can only be a good thing even with the compromise of increasing NVH.
The BC BR coilover would perhaps be my pick of the bunch.
Maybe look into aftermarket rear top mounts that raise the mounting point such as those offered on the 949racing website if the BC rear top mounts are the flat type. However you would need to make sure of the compatability between parts. These top mounts will give you a little more suspension travel before smacking the bump stops on big compression strokes. I think Jass performance offer something similar but inferior to the 949 (supermiata/xida??) type. Not absolutely necessary but a worthy future upgrade with regard to our road conditions in OZ.
Hope this has helped, i can't remember what the higher level teins were called but do know they were cost prohibitive being packed with all the fruit.

[Skifey]

Alright guys, so a quick update on the scenario. Thanks again 3gress and Luke for your help, it's all useful

Since I started the thread and reading everyone's responses I've realised I may have tunnel visioned a little here. Admittedly I really only made the thread to sort of validate and justify the choice of buying the Tein Flex Z to myself.... That backfired haha! I've asked around and tried to search out other options and here's what it's going to boil down to listed in order of cheapest to most expensive...

1. I've found a guy on FB that's offering me a complete set of Yellowspeeds for $800. His description is "Good condition been on car for under a year". Apparently seen no track usage. I've asked him where they're coming from and he reckons he buys mx5's and parts them out. Sounds like a decent price for what they are but at the end of the day I have no idea where they've been or what they've done and they're gonna be posted from Melbourne so I can't inspect either.

2. I go off and purchase the Tein Flex Z's for $1023 AUD from RHD Japan shipped to my front door. Install them, probably stuff it up, have no idea how to set it up, scratch some knuckles and then either love them or hate them. Sounds like a tad bit of fun

3. I've spoken to one of the guys over at MCA upon my brother's recommendation to do so (dealt with him in the past). I won't mention specifics for the sake of respecting his and my own privacy but long story short he's interested in helping me out. He's willing to give me a pair of Street Essentials (greens) for around the price of the blues ($1590), fully installed, setup and rolling which I think is a huge favour on his behalf. I won't have to do any of the technical work myself and I'm getting a coilover that alot of people I've spoken to are very (and I mean VERY) fond of. Then and again... I am spending another half thousand more than I originally intended....

What do you guys reckon? Risk the biscuit and do it cheap? Meet halfway and order the TEINS and potentially learn the hard way? Or cough up the cash and do it once and do it right? I'm really at a loss here although in all honesty I am leaning towards the MCAs... because I know a favour and good deal when I see one. It seems to be safest choice as well as the smartest choice in terms of longevity, although... money.

I've also attached some photos for those interested in how the car's currently sitting. You can see my front guard has been bent outwards by the wheel rubbing against it whilst turning... it seriously sucks.

[93_Clubman]

a pair of Street Essentials (greens)

A pair?
Another option, if you're not absolutely set on coilovers, is to get a set of 4 2004 NB8D SE silver Bilsteins complete with tophats & MazdaSpeed springs for about $300.

[ManiacLachy]

Go with the MCAs. I bought cheap, so I had to buy twice. Learn from others mistakes, buy once and buy quality.

Also, as mentioned 55 is too tall, get 50s. Regardless of the coilovers and springs you run you will be rubbing a lot on those tyres. You didn't buy right, so you have to buy twice.

Maybe get your fenders rolled/pulled, it looks awful close.

I like those wheels

[hks_kansei]

I have Flex-Z, they're good, I like them. I don't regret my purchase.

But, the MCA are better, and if I was buying again I'd probably go for them instead.

[Luke]

Well those pictures tell it all.
Your tyres are rubbing on the guards, not just the front liners.
Seriously, the tyres are too larger rolling diameter. That is your number 1 problem.
It doesn't matter what springs or coilovers you have or put in, those tyres will rub, they are too big.
You could probably fit the width with a serious roll and probably some guard pulling.
You will never fit the height up front though. Those tyres will always rub on the plastic splash shields.

More negative camber will help with guard clearance.
Have you got your alignment data you were going to post up?

And are those rears clearing? Are they rubbing as well? It looks like there is a constant black mark around the top of the tyre to me just above the Goodride lettering.

And now that you have posted those pictures I have a more serious safety question.
Are you are seriously worried about which coilover system to buy when you are running Chinese Goodride tyres?
I don't know who you bought those Enkei rims off, but I question why they would even think of putting such a cheap tyre on an expensive quality rim.

If you want to run such a wide rim, have a tyre that fits the rim properly and not be rubbing on your guards, you are going to have to bite the bullet and pay for the far less common 205/50/15 or 225/45/15 tyres.

I'll just also add regarding coilovers that I don't regret my purchase of Tein Street Flex. Flex Z didn't exist when I got them. It was Either BC xxx or Tein Street Flex in the price range I was looking at, at the time.
I don't regret it because they suit my purpose. Road registered car with track work focus. We are talking probably 10 to 15 events a year in it.
If it was only a road car or I drove it a lot more on the road the Teins would drive me mental.
When I see a bump in front of me, I brace myself for the shock that happens.

[Magpie]

[quote="Skifey"][/quote]I see that you are in Ripley.

I have a set of AD08R's (actually 2 sets) that I could sell for $50, they are just road legal and 205/50/15. The other set I would not class as legal, same price. I have a set of 195/55/15 that are in very good condition that I could sell. I'm just down the road from Ripley.

If you get your coilovers I'm happy to help you install and set them up. Maybe a good time to do a dodgy day anyway.