Best Bang for Buck handling mod ?

[bruce]

You guys are silly. The best handling mod is;

Driver training.

Go find yourself a good course.

[bensale]

Actually yes, what Bruce said!!!! Learning how the drive the car certainly improved the handling more than any mod.

Sliq, at the last track day (running 14' re001s) I started at 34psi cold. I took a laser thermometer and measured tyre heat across the tyre straight after i pulled into the pits and then adjusted each tyre individually tyre based on which part of the tyre was hottest. By the 3rd session i was coming off the track and tyre temperature was the same across the whole of the tyre which to me indicates that the whole tread was being used equally. You wouldn't be able to do this without a very good alignment though, too much camber, not enough, castor etc would all effect this and how the tyre is used. My road tyres at the moment are currently different front to back so I am running 2 psi more (38) in the rear to compensate for their softer sidewalls (205 45 16 Toyo T1R's) any less and you can feel the sidewall flex when you push them a bit.

[Old Dude]

Thanks Guys
I have the tyres, Alignment and air pressures sorted, so it sounds like the anti sway bars is the next logical place to start,
Thanks for your input
Cheers
Dale

[jerrah]

I've got Koni yellows, springs, LSD, bracing etc etc.

Biggest improvement for me was the Racing Beat swaybars. I went for the hollow front and a solid rear. Transformed my little NA6 into a go kart with no real difference to ride quality.

[Matty]

OK, time to interject in this thread. I know everyone means well, but information without understanding is misguided at best, and plain wrong at worst.

The fundamental question you need to ask yourself is: What is my goal?

This can be interpreted in a vast number of ways, including but not limited to:

What is my intention? (weekend-only blaster, daily beater/onramp demon, dedicated circuit, rally, drift, drag car or only occasional motorsport? Do I want/need something that looks faster, "feels" faster, or actually IS faster, in your chosen environment? Bearing in mind that no one setup is best for more than one of the above list.)

What is my budget? Will you be paying someone else to install/set up or DIY? (and further to this: is this the last mod I will ever do, or do I need this mod to work in conjunction with other mods?)

What are my constraints? (legally: ride height, ADR/state laws; practically: speed hump clearance/need to crawl over bumps, ease of entry/exit, ride comfort, dealing with random potholes; competitively: motorsport class rules, etc)

What is my ability to appreciate (and benefit from) any changes? (eg, I won last year's DECA in a bog standard NB on street tyres; don't underestimate what the standard car is capable of.)

How will this work with my current setup, and is my current setup likely to change? (eg, alignment or pressure optimisation varies with tyres/wheels used, suspension hardware, and what sort of driving you do)

What is my driving ability? - Can I handle a twitchy car that needs to be dríven 10/10ths to appreciate; will I have runoff areas; or should I keep it a little softer in case I cock up/meet a crashed biker on a blind corner/overestimate my skill or misjudge the conditions?

What conditions will I use the car in? Dry only? Wet? Dirt? Snow?

Without a detailed assessment of the above questions, your outcome is very unlikely to match your desires.

[samx5]

Good post Matty for newbs like me, gives food for thought. In my case I need the car (stock NB8A, 106K km) to work as a daily commuter as well as a fun toy, hence I've been thinking of just checking that shocks & bushes are still Ok, they maybe adding sways F & R only to sharpen the car up & make it feel more responsive without making it a pig on bumpy roads. At this stage I want to maintain the standard ride height. I've got CB's alignment (-1 camber F & R, max castor, toe-in F & R) with new S-Drives and the car is, shall we say, benign. Leans a fair bit especially at the front when cornering but doesn't seem to understeer much and doesn't scrub the front tyres. Doesn't feel like its squatting or "driving" from the rear at all if that makes sense. Doesn't do anything dramatic at all, but does have a fair bit of roll. If anything it feels like it will slide at the front when pushed hard enough, can't say I've thought it would ever oversteer after I had the alignment & tyres done. Last time I took it for a spirited drive it felt like it might understeer but never really did to any great degree, but did seem to squirm on the treadblocks a bit at the front, I thought the front tyres were going to be scrubbed on the outside edge when I got out but they didn't even look like they'd done any work at all. Maybe the car is in a nice neutral spot at the moment and I'm not used to it being so "undramatic". Would like to make it more responsive & sharp. Any advice from someone who has already been through the process is appreciated.

[Speedyblue]

I disagree with all you guys (except for tyre pressures)
My car had:
Kings lows
Adjustable konis
adjustable whiteline swaybars
Tb rollbar
Good tyres
and an aggressive wheel allignment.

The best mod I made to improve the handling was the sparco sprint race seat. It enabled me to strap in and concentrate on my driving rather than fighting sideways g-forces as I hurtled around corners. Best $320 (2nd hand) I spent. When I get another fast car, it'll probably the first mod I'll make.

[Matty]

Hi Sam. As you've seen, the standard car has buckets of grip, very neutral handling, and is very gentle on its tyres due to the suspension design (camber gain patterns). It's not something you want to mess with too much.

I can understand the desire to speed up the steering response a little; once you are used to it the body roll can make it feel a little doughy. In my experience sway bars are generally good, but they are not completely vice-free, they make the handling a little more skatey: it can skip around over bumps more, and is more likely to twitch into oversteer or understeer, and also lose traction under power - so in the real world (on road) it may be slower or less safe. The front/rear combination also needs to be well matched or it will change the under/oversteer bias. Personally, 14mm is as big as I would go at the rear. The typical 16mm bars lose you too much corner exit traction, unless you have an LSD.

One thing you can try (free of charge) is playing with the front toe setting (adjust the steering tie rods) - I believe (hazy memory) each turn of the tie rod makes about 7mm toe difference, so each flat is about 1mm. A little toe out on the front will make the turn in sharper, and generally not cause too much tyre wear, but it can make the car wander a little at high speed.

Otherwise, yes, good shocks (I'd go Bilsteins, maybe SE ones) and fresh bushings (I'd use factory ones) are a good start. If you get wheelspin in tight corners, and/or in the wet, an LSD is great too. It can turn one-wheel spin into oversteer though, so it tkaes some driving style adjustment.

Lowering is addictive, so if you're thinking of changing the shocks also consider springs now, as it will save you doing another alignment later if you add shorter springs...

Of course my favourite thing to do is recalibrate my perceptions by driving something else for a while...

[Matty]

I disagree with all you guys (except for tyre pressures)
My car had:
Kings lows
Adjustable konis
adjustable whiteline swaybars
Tb rollbar
Good tyres
and an aggressive wheel allignment.

The mest handling mod I made was the sparco sprint race seat. It enabled me to concentrate on my driving rather than fighting sideways g-forces as I hurtled around corners. Best $320 I spent.

Again, horses for courses. A race seat is the last thing I would do on a daily driver. People underestimate practicality.

[samx5]

I can understand the desire to speed up the steering response a little; once you are used to it the body roll can make it feel a little doughy. In my experience sway bars are generally good, but they are not completely vice-free, they make the handling a little more skatey: it can skip around over bumps more, and is more likely to twitch into oversteer or understeer, and also lose traction under power - so in the real world (on road) it may be slower or less safe. The front/rear combination also needs to be well matched or it will change the under/oversteer bias. Personally, 14mm is as big as I would go at the rear. The typical 16mm bars lose you too much corner exit traction, unless you have an LSD.

One thing you can try (free of charge) is playing with the front toe setting (adjust the steering tie rods) - I believe (hazy memory) each turn of the tie rod makes about 7mm toe difference, so each flat is about 1mm. A little toe out on the front will make the turn in sharper, and generally not cause too much tyre wear, but it can make the car wander a little at high speed.

Otherwise, yes, good shocks (I'd go Bilsteins, maybe SE ones) and fresh bushings (I'd use factory ones) are a good start. If you get wheelspin in tight corners, and/or in the wet, an LSD is great too. It can turn one-wheel spin into oversteer though, so it tkaes some driving style adjustment.

Lowering is addictive, so if you're thinking of changing the shocks also consider springs now, as it will save you doing another alignment later if you add shorter springs...

Of course my favourite thing to do is recalibrate my perceptions by driving something else for a while...[/quote]

Yes, our SP23 feels vague & lifeless in comparison! Thanks for that, I was also thinking along the lines of Billies & new rubber bushes to give it that tight, new car feel again, as I can't say I ever knew what a brand new NB8A felt like. Took it for another "spirited drive" for 200 kms yesterday & looked at the tyres afterwards, it still has the little rubber pimples on both inner & outer edges of all 4 tyres so the aligment is pretty good after a total of 2,000-odd kilometres. No wheelspin in tight corners, the S Drives have lots of traction & I probably don't try hard enough!

[Benny]

IMHO, sway bars will make the car feel more responsive on the road, but can have diabolical results on the track, or when you are really pushing hard on the road.
On the track, they tend to make 5's feel very taily and I've seen plenty of guys having fitted new, bigger sways on their cars spinning out a lot at the track and not knowing exactly why.
Larger sway bars will also make the car lose traction more suddenly than a softer set-up.

Contrary to popular myths, a bit of body lean is a good thing on a road car, as well as suspension that is not too stiff, as otherwise, your tyres will spend more time in the air than on the road, whenever you hit a bump.

The bushes are very important, but don't be swayed into thinking the best bushes are the stiffest bushes, as the crashing and banging your car will make will drive you mad, for little, if any, increase in grip.
Matty is 100% right when he says to only use the factory bushes, as they are a very good compromise for both street and track.

Good shocks can do wonders, but then again, don't go too stiff or you will not only ruin your ride, but also your grip on any road which has a bump on it.

The trick is to drive your car as quick as you can around a given set of corners and make mental notes about its behaviour, then try and work out how to get around any behaviours that you don't like.
Then, and only then, will you be able to have an idea of what you really want.

As Matty says, the standard car, in good condition, is far better than you think and if you can drive beyond your car's ultimate performance, then, and only then, will you derive any benefit from making any suspension changes.