Megasquirt I 12x12 tables big enough (ITBs)

[Si.G]

Hi everyone,

Basically looking for some oppinions about the available bins on the megasquirt I ECU and whether people think there should be enough load sites (12x12 tables) to tune a 1.6 high compression, 274 duration cams, with a fair bit of overlap, engine.

I did some tuning today and the guy where I hired the dyno from was telling me that I would struggle to get a good tune because of the low number of load sites I had and that the interpolation was not good and leaving lean spots in the map.

The set up is as per my garage thread engine wise and I am running a TPS tune.

I know every engine is different etc, I was wondering if anyone has any opinions or preferable experience of dyno tuning a high spec NA engine. Not necessarily with a megasquirt either... I guess the new motor could be quite sensitive and say of you had load sites at 40% and 50% throttle, there might be spike in fuel requirement at 45% and I guess any ecu interpolation is not going to sort that out, would simply need to add load sites and tune there or re-scale. Oppinions?

Just really wanting to guage whether to get a new ecu or not or should have another go with the megasquirt.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Si.

[NitroDann]

It will be fine,

My bigport 4AGE powered AE86 have 312 degree cams and ITBs on a TPS tune on a hell shitty old haltech E6 you tune with DOS, and it runs good.

Dann

[Charlie Brown]

Hi everyone,

Basically looking for some oppinions about the available bins on the megasquirt I ECU and whether people think there should be enough load sites ............Just really wanting to guage whether to get a new ecu or not or should have another go with the megasquirt.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Si.

fantastic. Nail it. Cast the line and ......

[plohl]

Dann, the e6x has more cells for ign and fuel then an ms1. Granted, they are in 500rpm intervals.

So, for 8000rpm, that makes it 16 x 32 (yes, i just counted mine, 32 bars per RPM interval).

Sig, you're right - linear interpolation is still linear. If it's for track and see pretty much only full throttle, you may get away with it. Sailaholic had an ms1 in his car with the mazdaspeed itb kit - std cams. It was gutless under 4k and ran stupidly rich over the whole map. I dont think it was ever tuned properly. I think he got the adaptronic within 6months of having the car. When the adaptronic was installed, it ran much better on a base map with autotune.

I say look at something else. You've just spent god knows how much on the engine, why skimp on the control system?

[NitroDann]

Carbies run just fine when tuned and they are much more linear and less precise.

The ms1 will work fine.

My ae86 has 312* cams, not some 270s. Thats F1 cams basically.

Dann

[noddi85]

Carbies run just fine when tuned and they are much more linear and less precise.

The ms1 will work fine.

My ae86 has 312* cams, not some 270s. Thats F1 cams basically.

Dann

Carbies also don't need computer controlled Injecters.
Running them and itbs are a lot different.
I also had a worked red top 4age with 20v quads but not with cams as big as that.
I had running it a older microtech mt-8 (I think it was from memory)
Tuning it off the tps on a dyno and got a good drivable tune from 1000 rpm to 8000 rpm

Interested in seeing what you do.
As I have a very similar build, but have not brought a computer as of yet.
Was thinking a megasquirt pnp2
Or Microtech again.

Having said that.
Maybe talk to your tuner and see if he/she has a good recommendation?

[noddi85]

Just had a look through some old pictures and the Microtech ecu I was using was a MTX-8 not a LT-8

[sailaholic]

Dann will always say go mega squirt regardless..... He also mentions how his sh*t old haltec chews fuel like it's still 80c per liter.

If I was looking at ecu again it would be an upgraded ms2, ie bigger maps ect. Then adaptronic with more budget then motec (which came down a lot recently, only a touch more then haltec.).

I would never go back to the ms1 I had and I didn't feel like paying half the cost of a new ecu to tune an old ecu and be told at the end it was sh*t.

Most of the tuners I spoke to who knew mega squirt were like, yup bank for buck, it's okay, but it's still sh*t if your serious about what your doing. This was based on the older gear (which I guess you have). Haven't spoken to people that have played with the newer stuff.

If you do go a new ms, be aware most of the pnp options are built using the microsquirt, which is more limited in its capabilities.

As plohl said you've spent so much money staying Na, why hamstring yourself with the ecu? It's like buying ohlins and then running triangle or blue streak tires.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[NitroDann]

I just fitted an adaptronic and liked it a lot.

Was nice an easy and ran the car well.

The haltec is in a car with MONSTER cams etc, its not fair to garbage it economy lol.

Dann

[mrpham]

Definitely upgrade to a MS2 variant, than we can share tunes

[Si.G]

Thanks everyone. Errm, I have a few options .....

I was looking at a haltech sprint 500 or the sport 1000. The sprint 500 only has 16x16 tables and does not really have many features other than running the engine. The sport 1000 on the other hand is 32x32 and has a load more features, but obviously costs more.

I did think about a MS2 PNP - that only has 16x16 fuel and 12x12 spark tables, not huge jumps up in bins to tune, similar to the haltech sprint 500. If I went haltech I think I would have to go for the sport 1000.

I like the open source nature of megasquirt because there are a lot of cool things out there for not much money, eg the android data logging stuff that enables you to capture G and GPS to render on video as well as everything else, I have bluetooth connectivity so no more cables, etc. The android app is great for using at the track and pretty limitless. The other plus is that I know my way around the software, I am sure learning a different one is not a big deal.

With things like haltech you get limited datalogging and stuff or you have to by more haltech gear and pay the price. My friend has an haltech in his s2000, there are limits to the number of values to log (when logging to the ecu) and logging at the maximum give you about 5 mins of data.

I have already purchased the full versions of tunerstudio etc. Obviously these did not cost massive, so they are not necessarily a big factor - as already said, getting a good tune and the most out of the engine should be the most important thing.

On another note, I think I might have suffered from 'I don't understand this ecu therefore it is sh*t' from the place I went yesterday. The whole day was a bit of a joke, so I wonder if I should have another go with the MS 1 - I have found another dyno for hire, where I know I will get much better service and support on the day, but am I throwing money away? Since I could end at the same conclusion and buy a different ECU anyway.

I think i will think about it for a while - got some other stuff to sort on the car, eg I don't have enough vac for the brake booster, need to take the manifold off and get a tube welded to one of the runners.

keep the comments coming...
Si.

[sailaholic]

You can buy a motec m84 for the price of a haltec platinum sport! I'm serious if your looking at haltec money also look motec. If you are getting hit with wa tax or something let me know and I can try to help out as my tuner is a motec dealer.

Your always going to suffer for vacuum with monster cams. Maybe consider a booster delete? I've got a good link on boosters and brakes ill try and dig out tomorrow.

You probably were suffering from I don't know it so it's sh*t, but ms1 was still very basic. Example I was given is 12x12 is probably ok for something like a std 2j which is very linear in Demands. Itbs and big cams tend to be non linear.

Depends on what percentage of a new ecu dyno time is costing you.


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[mrpham]

Also the MS2 and MS3 has a pretty cool table blending mode that is much easier to use than others.

http://www.77e21.info/mstuning_itbmode.htm

[sailaholic]

Brake Info -> http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/

When i asked Adaptronic about doing blended tuning the recommendation i got was

Q: With the Quads manifold pressure can be hard to measure correctly and I was looking into a hybrid Alpha N tune. From you literature I believe this is achievable using the two maps and switching or interpolating between them? Based on your experience which tuning mode would be best?
on the MS tuning modes,

A: The easiest way to do it is to set the tuning mode to TPS, but enable VE tuning mode. In VE tuning mode, the ECU scales the fuel delivery with the measured/predicted MAP value, which gives you your blended MAP/Alpha N tune. The only downside of this mode is that your ignition timing will be mapped against TPS. The alternative is to use the MAPxTPS tuning mode, which allows you to use the ignition mapped against MAP. But if you're happy doing TPS/RPM for ignition timing then that is the easiest way

.

Q: I noticed while reading today that the new Megasquirts have a ITB load tuning setup where is uses blended tuning (map x tps), but actually outputs it on one graphical map. Supposedly this makes the car easier to tune / auto tune. I have included the details -> http://77e21.info/mstuning_itbmode.htm . Is the 440 select capable of doing this at this point? Is this kind of capability something that could be brought in with a software upgrade if Adaptronic found it to be useful / effective ?

Comment from Adaptronic

Yes, the way that they do the blended table with a single table using a multiplicative function is the way that I recommend that you set it up on the Adaptronic - if you use a TPS tune in VE mode it will do this. Otherwise if you want to have the separate TPS and MAP tables multiplied together you can use the MAP x TPS mode and access the two tables individually (more tuning time but gives you more control).

I don't agree with their initial discussion of SD and AN and the necessity to run AN > 90 kPa and SD below this; the Adaptronic can do this in case people want to do it this way but I haven't found it works very well; mostly because at idle and part throttle we need TPS and scaled by MAP; simply the MAP can not change very much when you open the throttle but there is a lot more airflow because of the reduction in turbulence. You can do all of these modes with the Adaptronic, I've just told you that the TPS in VE mode will be the best option for ITBs.

nick

[mrpham]

Will you be tuning yours that way too?

I'll be doing a Alpha-N tune at first, than migrating to "ITB Mode". It's what my friend did in his little ITB 3 cylinder and works very well.