mx5cartalk.com

I recently had a bad experience with a particular ebay sellers muffler, it fail after 4 months and seller refused to refund as the tip and flange had been cut off to fabricate the replacement. I reasoned with the seller for about 5 emails back and forth. So in an attempt to recover costs i have offered the muffler up for "sale".

The link can be found at http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 500wt_1156

If you type in mx5 muffler in the search bar im sure you can work out who sells the items originally without too much effort.

For the record here is a copy of all the banter back and forth so far...you can see that i have been quite reasonable, well i think so anyway.

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Initial email:

Hi, i purchased this muffler mid july this year. I had some buzzing noises coming from under the car so took the car to a muffler shop to get a new cat converter put on as it was about due for replacement. This had no effect in stopping the buzzing. I had the mechanic investigate the source of the buzzing and it proved to be the rear muffler. The muffler was removed and inspected and the internal baffles have collapsed. Considering the muffler is only just over 4 months old and the mx5 is my 2nd car (its garaged and never dríven in the rain), it seems that this item had defective worksmanship causing it to fail so soon. The manager of the exhaust centre said you should get at the abolsute very least 2 years from a muffler even in bad conditions.

I am yet to post my problems on the mx5cartalk.com forums or inform my MX5 Car Club of QLD contacts, both of which i am i member, as i would like to give you the opportunity to rectify the situation before i post any negative comments. I have included an attachment of the sales invoice from "Brisbane Exhaust Centre" detailing the issue with the exhaust.

I also recently, about a week ago purchased a chrome roll bar from you. I was a bit disappointed you provided no instructions. On the page it says that its a direct bolt on, this is quite misleading and really is not the case. Significant panel removal was needed and dremel tool trimming of the seatbelt towel plastic panel surrounds was needed and redrilling of mounting holes on the factory windblocker to allow clearance. The seatbelt roller assembly had to be removed to tighten the underbolts. All up it took myself (a mechanical engineer no less) about 3 hours! Install instructions would be great and you should change you ad to reflect the install proccess, instructions can be found at http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/prod ... 03-716.pdf this bar is basically identical.

I also ordered a cirgrette liter chrome style. This didnt even fit in my standard hole. It was ever so slightly too big and would only go in and out with a huge amount of force. The first time i put it in, it pulled out the 12V socket with it!

Obviously these bad experiences has soured my opinion of your products and i think it would be reasonable to refund me the $249 for the muffler. The roll bar im happy with so far build wise and it looks good, i was annoyed at how misleading the ad was regarding installation. The lighter isnt really a huge issue but its really wasted money and ill let you come up with what you think is a fair compensation for the bar/lighter issues.

I can be contacted on 0431943575 if you wish to discuss further. The phone number for the muffler shop is 0733913112 if you wanted to talk to them. I still have the old muffler, but i dont really think its needed to pay freight to send it back as its been expertly examined with documentation to prove this.

Regards
Chris

The reply:

just a quick read through all your problems.
1. muffler, send the muffler back to the following address for inspection, and i will send you one as replacement.
2. roll bar, i would give give you a copy of instruction if requested.
3. the cigar lighter seems only fits on NA model only, i can take it back and refund your money.

i will sort it out if it's our problems, but please don't try to use 'post any negative comments' make us do anything without communicating.

regards!
<Address content removed by request of OP>

My reply:

I live in brisbane and would be more than happy to deliver the muffler myself. But i as i said i have got a muffler shop to inspect the muffler as indicated in the attachted documentation. As you can see from the invoice i have had this muffler replaced by a muffler at the exhaust shops so i could drive the car. Thus i am more after a refund of the purchase price rather than a replacement.

Secondly, it would just be good customer service for you to include instructions when you ship the item rather than waiting for the customer to need to request them. I can assert that for this install, some form of instructions is essential, why not save the customer the time... I mean it wasnt hard for me to google them, but im thinking more from a "encouring repreat business" side of things. I was really happy with your speed of postage and the muffler itself before it broke. Im sure it was just a one off thing and thats why i really dont want to say anything bad about it and give people the wrong idea. How you handle the situation when something goes wrong is way more important to the customer in my opinion.

I wouldnt worry about the lighter, I have given this to a friend to use and just gone back to using the stock one. Iv since decided to put a voltage gauge display in the cigarette socket so i am happy just to not worry about the lighter issue, no harm done there.

Thanks for your reply and look forward solving the problems. I would be more than happy to leave positive feedback for the rollbar and lighter on ebay and let people know on the forums that my experiences with you were great when i had the issue of a one off muffler fault.

Cheers Mate
Chris

His reply:

We will only give refund if the item is still in original condition, so the best i can do is give you shopping credit, but not refund for the muffler. let me know if that's ok with you.

regards!
HAN

My reply:


No that is not okay with me. Thats going to be a problem as the muffler inlet and outlet has been removed to allow easier install rather than fabricating new bends for the replacement muffler. Not really looking for a store credit. its not like you could repair the muffler anyway as its the internal baffles. I already got sway bars so thats about all from your store id be keen on. since iv got the roll bar alreadyy. If you were happy to refund $200 rather than $250 that would cover the cost of me getting the replacement and i would be happy to leave all positive feedback. Let me know if that will work for you?

Regards
Chris

His reply:

sorry mate, i will need the muffler back if you want any refund. you need to communicate with me regarding warranty before making any decisions.

my reply:

As previously stated, i live in Brisbane and would be more than happy to deliver the muffler in person to save on the postage costs and speed up the process, if you would so kind as to supply an address. As you can see from my flexibility with the other issues i am attempting to be reasonable and want to assist you in any way possible to come to an amicable solution. You must realise however that having the mufflers internal baffles collapse after not even 4 months is simply not acceptable of a quality product. I request your flexibility in the return of the item.

I am more than happy to return the muffler for a refund of $200 to cover the cost of the replacement, however you must realise, that the inlet and outlet tubing from the npower muffler has been removed to be transplanted onto the replacement muffler to minimize fabrication costs. I completely understand that your normal procedure would be to replace the item, which would only cost yourself the price of the muffler before profit margin is added. I also understand that this is why you would prefer to issue a store credit. As you can see from the invoice the muffler itself cost $180, since i was installing a new cat and tip to the muffler he did not charge extra to install the muffler. I am really trying to be flexible on the matter and would be happy to even be refunded $180, as i was going to pay to have the cat converter and tip installed anyway. Im sure that the $180 is alot closer to the pre profit price of the muffler to yourself. If i was to recieve a store credit i would expect this to be for the full $250, is this correct?

In regard to making a decision on the matter, the car was up on a hoist having the cat converter fitted at the time, and the rattling noise was investigated, having proved to be the muffler, it was alot more economical to have a replacement muffler fitted at the same time. My choice to fit a new muffler should have no consequence in regard to the defective nature of the npower muffler due to its collapsed internal baffles. This means the muffler than i will be returning has both the intake and outlet tubes removed as well as collasped internal baffles, it wasw deemed not suitable to be repair according to Brisbane Exhaust Center. I am a little confused as to why you need the broken item, maybe you can clarify?? Would a photo suffice to prove ownership?

Your stipulation that the muffler must be returned in original condition does not make much sense from my perspective. As stated before i was very happy with the muffler up until it broke. If the muffler was in original condition (ie the internal baffles were intact) i would not be returning the muffler. The fundamental fact is the the internal baffles collapse after not even 4 months and i think that any reputable seller would agree that this item was defective.

Hopefully we can come to an agreement on the issue.Let me know the steps i will need to take to facilite the refund of $180. I look forward to your reply. Have a good one.

Regards
Chris

His reply:


The warranty process for our company is

1. if the product is still in original condition, you send it back and get all your money back or credit.
2. if the there's something wrong with the product, you send it back as is, and we will inspect it, if the product is faulty, we will replace it for you. (i shouldn't have offered your credit base on this, but i did any way)

I don't think any companies would cover warranty if the product has been cut into pieces, and put them in other uses. You should contact us if you don't what our warranty policy is, not assume what we will do.

Regards!
HAN


My reply:

While i agree that the item being cut, adds another facet to the augment, i would point out that it has no relevance to the fact the item failed after only four months as detailed by a professional exhaust shop. Even with the inlet/outlet cut one can still clearly show the defects that warrant the return. One might argue that you would have had to remove one of these pipes in any case to have access to properly inspect the internal baffles for damage.

As i said before, with the car being on the hoist at the time a decision had to be made on the spot. I assert that any reasonable person, would under the circumstances, do the same and assume a seller would refund the purchase price for an item that fails so soon. Any reasonable person would expect that a seller would be sympathetic in this case.

I think you need to take responsibility for the item failing after 4 months which clearly demonstrates bad workmanship with regard to the welds and am happy to concede this may be a one off case. I am trying to resolve the situation without any negative comments. However further problems will force me to leave negative feedback, and enter into a ebay dispute resolution. In addition to this i will detail my problems and issues on both the mx5 forums i am a member of and pass on all correspondence to the MX5 club of QLD. This would not be good for your business i can assure, but you have put me in an awkward position that i would rather not do, but will do so if a reasonable compromise cant be met.

Should a satisfactory resolution not be reached following these processes, I will consider moving to the next stage in lodging a complaint Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

Like i said im happy to send back the item "as is" if you would so kind as to provide an address so that i can deliver the item myself to avoid unnecessary postage costs and will drop the item off at your convenience. If you insists that i post the item, i can do so. I would do this on the basis that you would refund the whole amount.

If we can save everyone involved the trouble, avoid postage costs, take the professional exhaust shops expert opinion at value as documented in my first email, and refund a reasonable amount of $180 i will be happy to put the matter to rest and cease any further proceedings.

Regards
Chris

His reply:

i have replied you, no warranty if the muffler is cut for other uses. i am not going argue with you any more.

My reply:

Might i remind you that you money you stand to loose on refunding the muffler would be in the order of $100-150. If i am able to convince a single person to not buy your product you will be worse off financially. I am a uni student, $180 is alot of money to me. I am now on a 3 month break so i have all the time in the world to convince people not to buy your product if you choose not to take responsibility.

I have requested you provide an address in at least two or possibly three separate emails. You have not done this, or provided a response to me simply dropping off the muffler to avoid postage costs.

Over the next few days i will be drafting a post to put on the forum, i will send you a copy of this post before i upload it to the forum to provide you with one final opportunity to resolve the issue.

I will also be entering into a ebay dispute resolution. Im not simply going to go away because you do not want to take responsibility for a faulty product. The FACT is that the product failed after FOUR MONTHS, any other issues are of little relevance and i am sure the opinions of the forum members would be similar. Keeping customers happy should be your first priority. I think i have been more than reasonable, and have yet to leave ANY bad feedback of any kind.

Regards
Chris

That was the last i heard from Han, i have sinced informed him of my ebay sale will provide him a link to this post.
Thought i would try and keep you guys from having the same issues. The muffler may or may not be a one off fault, but i thought i should point out that obviously the warranty policy of this seller is not flexible at all. As you can see from my post, everything is either factual or my opinion, make your own judgement, but im confident most will come to the same conclusion.

Sorry for the super long post, just wanted to be thorough.

after reading this, im not going to join sides

but since the original muffler has been cut, that pretty much voids the warranty in my opinion. If it was removed and send back in one piece that would have been the end of it.

If you do a few searches on the forum, there have been other people that have had the Npower collapse...I personally had one on my car for a year or so before selling it and had no problems.

In the end its a cheap muffler. The seller would have no worries refunding the money if the muffler was still intact.

Ive just spent just inder $700 on my rear muffler alone, it comes with a lifetime warranty as long as its on the car

Thanks for the input regie. I think that lesson has definitely been learnt. Obviously a lot more stubborn than most. While technically cutting the flange and tip might void the warranty, im a big believer of the "common sense should prevail" method of thinking and would have thought a little flexibility would be good customer service considering all of the other circumstances that surrounded the incident. Just my opinions though

Id love to be able to afford a full SMB muffler, but for now have replaced it with a Bosal weld in straight through turbo muffler, slightly louder, but way mellower sound, not raspy at all. I thought the n power tone was great to be honest, but this is even better.

Oh and im going to have a go at installing those koni's on monday, cant wait to get rid of my shot oem shocks!

Hope its sunny down in Sydney, rain all weekend here regie

PS, if anyone felt that way inclined a quick message to the ebay seller asking if he has had many returns on the muffler and what his warranty policy is might highlight the awesomeness of the internet and how quickly things spread....

Mate, im not having a go at you, but when you said "im a big believer of the "common sense should prevail" method"

surely you have to apply this to yourself, you didnt think cutting up the muffler and then expecting a refund would work right?

And it wasnt that he didnt provide bad customer service he did offer you a refund/store credit/replacing the item.

I definately know how it feels, im a law uni student myself and alot of the time its all about the little bit of money you have to survive.

But this is how i feel coming a law stand point, just my pov.

goodluck with it all!

Point taken. I definitely did apply the common sense approach, had the car on the hoist, it made more sense to have the replacement done on the spot. If the seller was somehow losing revenue because he got back a cut item rather that an original item i could understand why he wouldnt want to do a full refund, i did even address this in one of my emails and offered a reduced refund of $180 to cover the replacement. Also my problem with just the store credit was that firstly, hes still making a profit off me, not something i want after all this trouble, and also i am dubious as to the quality of his products, and obviously im quite vocal about that.

Its not like he is going to repair it of use it for anything, and if you have a look at my replies, i was more than happy to deliver the muffler personally, but he never replied yes or no. He just posted a PO box,even though i live a couple of suburbs away!

After all the dramas i had with the roll bar needing belt tower cutting, the cigarette lighter not fitting...
I even emailed the seller to ask if he would revise his listing to inform that cutting is required for the roll bar and that the lighter will only fit an NA model, but he is yet to reply or change the listing. This would be an easy way to avoid this in the future, atm he is still asserting the lighter works with a NB when he knows that it does not and misleading buyers that the roll bar "simply bolts to seatbelt towers".

Just trying to keep ebay honest. I was just looking for some kind of compromise, but he just brick walled me and now i want to break even for all the trouble. Call me stuborn but i was brought up to hold principles with high value. While the circumstances might not be perfect, im sure that most people of the forum would be annoyed if the same happened to them, especially the uni kids.

Thanks for your input, happy to hear both sides of the arguement

At the very least this post will:

stop people assuming the seller might have the same opinion when it comes to "common sense"
let people know that the mufflers baffles collapsed after 4 months
let people know the roll bar will require cutting of the towers and does not come with instructions
let people know the lighter advertised to fit both NA and NB does not fit an NB and the seller has not updated this

Im sure that all this discussion might make people thing twice about buying from this seller, as regie seems to think that this was not just an isolated case.

Yet to hear a word from the seller, costs me nothing to keep relisting the ad, only 5 minutes every 14 days. And i dont think i am breaking any laws/ebay rules from what i understand, just selling the muffler for "scrap". At some point the revenue lost from people being discouraged and seeking other muffler options will outweigh the costs of refund, depending on what the profits margins are ect.

I was hoping that people might be able to elaborate more on why cutting the muffler has relevance to the refund, im not following the thought process, but happy to gain an understanding of the other side of the coin, maybe im just too stubborn to see haha.

Thanks guys

you forgot one other thing

- use the forum and club sponsors that support mx5s

good luck on your endeavours

JBT wrote:

Regie wrote:...but since the original muffler has been cut, that pretty much voids the warranty in my opinion.

following this logic anybody that has changed their muffler tip will void their warranty as its not in original condition... just a thought

Oh im sorry sir, i see you have fitted a aftermarket gear knob and dont have the original anymore, this obviously voids your new car gearbox warranty...

At what point do we draw the line?

Redondo, yea i definately will do so. I recently ordered some ignition leads, was an absolute headache with anyone other than mazda, who want $115 for the crappy oem ones. Argued with supercheap and repco that i only needed two coz iv got a SVT and they didnt believe me. Ended up talking to mx5mania, leads were higher spec 8.5mm, red, cheaper ($90 shipped) and he did payment over the phone and sent them out that afternoon for me. So only good things to say about mx5mania.

I dont want people to think im one of those whingers. I am just quite vocal. I quite often call the boss and give them feedback on great experiences i have had with staff. The more people know about sellers the more informed a decision they can make. This is only one experience, would be happy to hear anybody elses feedback on the seller and/or the muffer itself.

Cheers guys

Ok Chris, you've asked for an explanation, please don't take offense at mine It's not intended to offend. I'm not about to get into a debate with you.

A "retailer", or even a wholesaler for that matter, will honor warranty claims because they can get a credit or exchange or refund from whoever they bought the item from, be it wholesaler in the case of a retailer, or distributor or manufacturer etc. The manufacturer will not refund/credit etc a product which has been tampered with, not used as intended etc, so the retailer can't take it back either because they are then left "holding the baby" so to speak, and having to lose their money. You want your money back, the person who sold it to you will want his back from where ever he bought it, but he won't get it back because you have altered it. You rooted it, you lose. As the seller has stated, if you had left it alone, taken it off the car and returned it, you would now have your money back, or at the very least a store credit. None of that is poor customer service, it's sensible business practice, without which, businesses would go broke very easily.

So put yourself in his shoes - go and buy 100 NPower mufflers from the manufacturer in good faith, believing that they are a good product with a good chance of selling well. You're excited at the chance of selling these, and the profit you will make, so that you can feed and house your family. As it turns out, they are rubbish and have this problem which you encountered, which isn't discovered until after all 100 have been sold. You've just spent (lets keep the maths simple ) $10k on some tin ware which fails. Every one of your 100 customers discovered this, so went down to their local exhaust shop to have it repaired, then didn't like the outcome, so come back to you for their money and want to send you their modded N Power muffler back in return. Due to the warranty limitations, you know that you won't get one cent of your $10k back from the manufacturer because these customers have not kept it in the condition in which it was sold. You have a choice - find the profits which you've already spent, and give it all back to the customers, and then leaving you with 100 mufflers now worth much less than $10k, probably nothing, and at the very best, you've just lost $10k - or, stand by the warranty limitations and refuse to take back the mufflers or give any sort of refund, because doing so will mean that your family has to move out onto the street; and people living on our streets is no good for anyone You might think the scenario above is very unlikely, and perhaps it is, but it illustrates the point, and the reason you're not getting your money back. If you tried to take this matter to consumer affairs, ebay , tried suing the seller, etc, you would be laughed away in each instance.

The issue here is trying to return damaged goods for a refund, NOT trying to return faulty goods for a refund, irrespective of what it was doing before it became damaged. No retailer, wholesaler or manufacturer should have to take back goods which have been damaged by the customer, especially having been damaged knowingly and willfully such as you have done by paying your exhaust shop to "damage" the item which you purchased... Suck it up mate, next time take the faulty product "as it died" straight back to the seller for any chance of a satisfactory outcome for yourself.

Cheers

RE; the comments comeing back from FORUM members :: their absolutely CORRECT!! from a business point of view ?? ME: as a mature age bloke IM very pleased to know there are some young blokes in our unis that think like you IM A FAN!!

Haha thanks russ. While it appears from the legal/trade practices perspective cutting the muffler was a bad move, lets let the free market economy decide. I might appear to be a giant pain in the **** but id love to hear a rebuttal (yea i was an master-debater in high school), with regard to;

Does putting a new tip on void your warranty? if its clear that this had nothing to do with the actual fault?
How about the gear knob example? Where is the line between the two?

Lets not forget that 4 months to failure is the underlying issue. What do people normally expect...5,10 years?

Definitely aware that the case would be laughed out if i tried to sue, but i think the free market move is a much nicer solution as it serves a dual purpose. Nice and neat and costs me nothing

And just a thought guys, just because the law says something doesn't mean you shouldn't question it. Its usually pain in the **** kinda people who work so hard to set precedents that we base our laws on today.



Can anybody offer an

Thanks NMX516, your response was very informative. Wish i had heard your advice before this saga!

I think you make a very valid point, i should really ask the seller if he has had trouble with his supplier and if that flow on effect is why he is refusing a refund.
Im sure that most would agree though that if anyone is living on the streets it will be a uni student and not a well established ebay power seller, but im not going to pretend im going hungry haha.

I think the whole issue got under my skin because of the sellers lack of sympathy, all the other issues iv had with him and his brick wall position. When he offered me a store credit, i still had to pay shipping to post the item to a PO that i could drop the item off at the same post office!! Then he makes a profit when i buy something from his store... NO THANKS!

I offered to deliver it myself but no reply, he just ignored sections of my emails and only addressed certain points. If he had taken the time like yourself to really address the issues behind my concerns and explain the reasons behind his position i probably would have sucked it up and just never bought from him again. Even something along the lines of "sorry mate, since i cant return the item to my supplier i cannot refund you, sorry for the inconvenience, this is my suppliers contact #". A little bit of effort and politeness goes a long way here.

The other point is maybe the seller needs to twist his suppliers arm and stand behind his customers if this kind of failure is happening all the time. When i used to work at Harvey Norman, we had some really dodgy lcd monitors come back with dead pixels. I felt terrible for recommending them when i had 4 come back in a week. I took care of the customers, apologized for the muck around, some of the customers had even thrown away the boxes/lost the manual and we didn't care. In all the cases the customers were happy with a simple sorry and then i sold them a different product and gave them a heavily discounted extended warranty if they so wished, to make them happy. I then went to my boss and convinced him we needed to send back all the remaining stock and inform the supplied that their quality control left something to be desired and he did so. We never stocked that brand of monitor thereafter... the seller is still selling these mufflers and seems mine was not an isolated incident. Maybe he should cut his losses and return the rest like we did.

I guess he just has to make the decision as to whether indefinitely having a defective item for sale right below his item, with a link to this forum is worth refusing a refund. This thread has already had almost 200 views and the ebay item has just cracked 50 views Without getting into the maths im sure the break even point would only be a sale or three. Since everything i have said is factual or stated as opinion i dont believe ebay will take down my listing either, or so i am let to believe in reviewing their policies. Regardless of my intentions all this discussion is healthy to inform buyers of all these issues with any product from ebay or any retailer for that matter.

Thanks for taking the time, i certainly learnt something! I think the biggest thing to take from this is stick to the forum sponsors if in doubt, they are sponsors because of their great reputation, and we should reward that.

JBT wrote:

Regie wrote:...but since the original muffler has been cut, that pretty much voids the warranty in my opinion.

I agree with this. Common sense is irrelevant. When it comes down to rules and procedures, the written rule will always prevail and if that is their policy then too bad. you the consumer should have looked into it further.
I know it's crap but that's the real world for you. I work in nursing and we have all kinds of stupid ass rules you like that and if you break 'em you get your ass sued. So word of the wise, you learn from your mistakes.

But hey, like someone here said, it was a cheapie anyway. Ages ago I spent $370 on a cheap cat back and got far less than what I paid for. It was my fault for scraping the bottom of the barrel when it came to prices and looking for the cheapest place around. Since I bought the RSR, i've been happy every since.
My advice is to cut your loses and find something better

Thanks for the comment nanotech. Got a Bosal mild steel turbo straight through now with a two year warranty and as the shop fabbed up my muffler its now in "original condition", for what thats worth. Im loving it! Fortunately common sense is very revelant when it comes to consumers making the decision to engage in business with a seller that hides behind these "stupid rules". Sellers like this (and maybe that really means his supplier, as he is just passing down there rules) will continue to provide crappy products and make excuses about the warranty while the general opinion is oh well just suck it up and move on. If more people stood up and made a fuss then maybe sellers would realise having the "stupid rules" is bad for business and suppliers would have to follow suit to compete for business. Then we might not have to deal with these "stupid rules", seems like a win to me, albeit some effort it required...

The other question is WHY does the supplier need it in original condition?? does it actually make a difference to them? will they reuse parts maybe? or is it just something to hide behind?

Im actually really suprised how a good portion of replies seem to think that "he offered you a store credit and you cut it so too bad" is consider customer service at all. When i lived in Darwin i had a jaycar amp, it died after 9 months, took it back, manager made sure i had a receipt and i didn't cause the fault, then he took it back and gave me the display model they had on the house. Now thats customer service!

I guess for alot of forum members think that the $300 odd dollars is not worth the effort. That 300 dollars took me 12 hours of work as a trade assistant working on hot diesel engines in a engine room in an 40degree alice springs power station. Granted, I actually had a blast doing the work, it was tough, but i learnt alot
when i finish my degree next year and can afford a $700 smb that will be the go. But an engineering in training doesnt pay so well...

LOL, So any of you guys that have welded on a tip. You realise your warranty is now void and null. Laughable right? Any good aftermarket company would realise that most people may want to weld on a different tip and would be a little bit flexible on that side of things. In the free market the companies that did would do better, all else constant.

Thanks for all the views guys, getting the word out is working well so far!