Help me identify this roll bar

angusis2fast4u · Postby **angusis2fast4u** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:27 pm

Hi I am looking for some information on this roll bar. I would like to put it in my NB with a glass softtop and modplate it and be street legal, is that all possible with this roll bar? does anybody know the brand/who makes it? is it NB compatible? modplate-able?

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:59 pm

Home made?

:mrgreen:

hks_kansei · Postby **hks_kansei** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:01 pm

Looks like a Cusco or similar. Hard to tell with the awful paint job.

As for the glass window, it's unlikely as the rear diagonal goes between the rear legs, right where the glass needs to go when the roof is folded up or down.

I would also question it's ability to actually do anything in a rollover with the bolted in sections and all.
And you'd want to have some hefty spreader plates made up for each leg, otherwise it would just pull the mounting bolts through the floor in a roll.

angusis2fast4u · Postby **angusis2fast4u** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:15 pm

thanks guys i've just positioned it in the car and it seems to clear the glass soft top but it seems to interfere with the seatbelts but I don't know if it's because i'm not positioning it right but its in the only place it really fits. I bought it being told it is a cams approved roll bar which should be modplate-able, but i'm having doubts at the moment whether that was true or not

Mr Morlock · Postby **Mr Morlock** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:31 pm

I agree it looks like Joe the plumber- even the bolts look like an amateur at work. I would not even think about putting it in a car. You would ( none of us would) have any idea at all of of its structural integrity. No one should contemplate putting one if these things into a car unless it carries some sort of certification from a known source e.g. Brown Davis etc. No definitely not street legal. In some States you would have to get a mod certificate= no chance of that in my opinion. If you want to test the theory go and ask a professional welding shop.

bruce · Postby **bruce** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:32 pm

Nasty Japanese bar.
Definitely not CAMS approvable due to the unwelded bolt-in bars, plus the lack of proper mountings.

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:35 pm

If it is CAMS approved, it will have a sticker saying so, and should have paperwork. I HIGHLY doubt that it complies, bolted members is a no-no.

:mrgreen:

hks_kansei · Postby **hks_kansei** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:41 pm

greenMachine wrote:If it is CAMS approved, it will have a sticker saying so, and should have paperwork.

Didn't CAMS change the rules a couple of years ago though that made it a lot easier for a lot of bars to get passed for use at events (ie: club type time trial stuff, not door-to-door stuff)

I seem to remember something about (for the more casual events run to CAMS specs) that they only had to have a scrutineer say it looked like it wasn't a danger (not that it was actually useful in a rollover)

Obviously for a proper bar/cage you still need to jump through the hoops and have it stickered, signed, etc.

But yeah, i'd assume whoever said it was CAMS approved meant that it might get an OK at a CAMS event for a regular trackday.

Mr Morlock · Postby **Mr Morlock** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:48 pm

Just look at it- of course its not approved and it was not made by a professional. If you want a roll bar you pay the money for a certified product. Incidentally no amateur has any hope of designing their own roll bar and knowing how it will perform. No compromises on things like this- its not the 1950's.

hks_kansei · Postby **hks_kansei** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:03 pm

Mr Morlock wrote:Just look at it- of course its not approved and it was not made by a professional. If you want a roll bar you pay the money for a certified product. Incidentally no amateur has any hope of designing their own roll bar and knowing how it will perform. No compromises on things like this- its not the 1950's.

I can tell it's not approved since it looks like Ray Charles built it (then had Stevie Wonder paint it), and yes, it looks very amateur (either fully home made, or a Japanese one that has then been modified at home)

The CAMS thing was more to explain how people often advertise bars as CAMS approved when they don't have any paperwork.

There are different requirements for rollbars/cages depending on the event they are to be used in, and this is where people tend to get mixed up.

For proper racing they need to be CAMS approved, so inspected, certified, given a serial number, and given a heap of paperwork to prove all the above was done. Bsaically proven that if the car turns over, it will keep you safe.

For a non competitive CAMS event, the cage simply needs to be deemed by whoever is scrutineering on the day that the cage won't make you any less safe than if it werent there at all. There's no stampings, no logbooks, just a guy who eyeballs it and says "yeah, probably fine"

The rollbar in my car is a Brown Davis, and when I purchased it they said there were two options, one was the rollbar with CAMS number and paperwork, and the other was the identical bar but without the paperwork.
In my case I decided against the paperwork, since I never intend to do any events that would require the bar to be proven as CAMS approved (or approvable)

In saying all that, the bar advertised above is rubbish.
It would probably be given the OK at a casual event run to CAMS rules (I've seen worse given the ok), so in that sense it would be "cams approved", but if you took it in for certification they would likely just bin the thing and start fresh.

greenMachine · Postby **greenMachine** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:07 pm

hks_kansei wrote:
greenMachine wrote:If it is CAMS approved, it will have a sticker saying so, and should have paperwork.

Didn't CAMS change the rules a couple of years ago though that made it a lot easier for a lot of bars to get passed for use at events (ie: club type time trial stuff, not door-to-door stuff)

I seem to remember something about (for the more casual events run to CAMS specs) that they only had to have a scrutineer say it looked like it wasn't a danger (not that it was actually useful in a rollover)

Obviously for a proper bar/cage you still need to jump through the hoops and have it stickered, signed, etc.

But yeah, i'd assume whoever said it was CAMS approved meant that it might get an OK at a CAMS event for a regular trackday.

Nothing official that I have seen or heard of. That is not saying there is nothing along those lines, just I haven't seen it. And being approved (or approvable) is VERY different to some official letting you run. If 'approved' or 'approvable' were the words used, you have clear grounds for getting your money back.

There seems to be a general acceptance of BD roll bars here in NSW, but I suspect that that is because they are 'CAMS approved', ie you can get the sticker and paperwork for them so they are a known quantity.

I would not go to the trouble of installing something like that for two reasons - it is obviously non-compliant, and I could have no confidence that a scrute would 'let it through' - even if one did, the next may not. I would not let that on the track myself, as it clearly does not comply with the standards, and if there was shunt and it did not work well, let alone someone was injured as a result, what would I say in my defence if/when challenged about why it was 'let through'? Leaving aside the detail of me having to live with the consequences of that decision...

Much better, IMHO, for the OP to get something that is compliant and then you can worry about all the other things involved in tracking a car.

:mrgreen:

hks_kansei · Postby **hks_kansei** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:26 pm

I'm not sure when, or if, they were changed.

I just recall speaking about it with a few of the race guys at Sandown maybe 18months ago (might have been longer come to think of it?)

My main point was that just because a bar or part is advertised as being CAMS approved doesnt mean it actually is, since people often apply rather broad definitions to it (either intentionally, or by ignorance)

Jeo · Postby **Jeo** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:31 pm

So while it might not look safe, at least it looks good, right guys?

angusis2fast4u · Postby **angusis2fast4u** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:44 pm

Awesome guys, only picked it up for a couple of hundred so i'm not too fussed, i'll just save up for an AGI unless some else wants to tell me that not CAMS spec or modplate-able haha

RS2000 · Postby **RS2000** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:25 pm

greenMachine wrote:If it is CAMS approved, it will have a sticker saying so, and should have paperwork. I HIGHLY doubt that it complies, bolted members is a no-no.

I'm not saying this cage is Cams approved, BUT bolted members on backstays & diagonals is fine - see Schedule J in Cams manual.
Bond Roll Bars still make Cams & FIA approved 'bolt in' & 'bolted joint' roll bars.

Cheers