mx5cartalk.com

Just seen video of it. Is it my imagination/colour-blindness or are the double waved yellows replaced by a single waved green for several seconds before the second impact and for 10 seconds afterwards?

Yeah I'm sure I saw that too!

Green flag is after the previous incident, yellow before incident green after.

What Tbro said.

When the tractor moved back towards the opening in the Armco, it was then in the previous sector - that post was responsible for clearing the yellow by showing a green, allowing overtaking after the yellow (which should have still been shown by the previous post, as marshals were still active in that sector). It is a bit confusing, as the accident was basically underneath the flaggies post, but what they did was correct.

That changed of course when Bianchi arrived - as his accident was also in the previous sector, I assume race control ordered a yellow at that post, followed shortly by the SC board (or maybe they immediately ordered a SC, and it took a few moments to get the board out).

I hope he pulls through, with no significant injuries.

I have not heard why he went off, whether something happened, or he was just travelling too fast and aquaplaned off. No doubt he was pushing, as he had a sniff of a seat at the red team next year would be wanting to strut his stuff in those conditions. It is a hard, unforgiving sport.

The Dunlop curve sector was under waved double yellow at the time - the green flag was shown correctly once the crane was back inside the first sector. He does appear to have aquaplaned off, and hit the crane with a glancing blow that destroyed the airbox and back of the car - I heard a speed of 215km/h at impact mentioned.

Still surprised a Safety Car wasn't called once it was apparently Sutil couldn't be retrieved without a crane and marshals trackside - deteriorating conditions, one car already off there (possibly a stream of water over the track).

Awful scenes and it was horribly reminiscent of Imola post-Grand Prix in 1994.

Fingers crossed for the young fella but recovering from a severe head injury is not the work of a moment, and can range from Richard Hammond's near full recovery which is really still in progress 6 years later, Michael Schumacher's mysterious condition (which I suspect is pretty awful) through to vegetative states.

Until we get further news it's all speculation.

The crane may have been a metre inside the sector, but Sutil's car was still dangling from the end and looks like it was in the next sector. To me this seems like a stupidly dogmatic interpretation of the flag regulations. That flag point was clearly still a substantial safety risk for marshalls and drivers. It should NOT have been changed to green while the tractor and Sutil's car were still in front of the barriers.

Whatever the reason, this incident gives us all a renewed respect for yellow flag procedures! At the Phillip Island 6hr there were plenty of yellow flags, double waved yellows, and safety cars. Many drivers failed to treat them correctly and incurred penalties and official warnings on their licence.

The Bianchi family released a statement overnight indicating Jules had suffered a diffuse axonal injury, i.e. the injury was caused by rapid deceleration, not impact. So it looks like he didn't strike his head...

These injuries can be hugely damaging and can't be rectified by surgery - looks like an induced coma to deal with swelling and then hope for the best.

Guran wrote:The crane may have been a metre inside the sector, but Sutil's car was still dangling from the end and looks like it was in the next sector. To me this seems like a stupidly dogmatic interpretation of the flag regulations. That flag point was clearly still a substantial safety risk for marshalls and drivers. It should NOT have been changed to green while the tractor and Sutil's car were still in front of the barriers.

Whatever the reason, this incident gives us all a renewed respect for yellow flag procedures! At the Phillip Island 6hr there were plenty of yellow flags, double waved yellows, and safety cars. Many drivers failed to treat them correctly and incurred penalties and official warnings on their licence.

The point is that the green only applied AFTER the post. The cars were still 'under yellow' until they passed that flag post. Bianchi started and finished his accident prior to that post, and therefore it all occurred 'under yellow flags'. It also follows that there is a question about his driving, and whether it was appropriate not only to the conditions, but also to the requirements on drivers while 'under yellow flags'. Prima facie it would seem that the answer to those questions is a 'no' in one or both cases.

I heartily agree with the highlighted part of your comment - a sad reminder that what can happen sometimes does happen.



ETA: Good reading but may only be accessible to subscribers. He is suggesting the use of pit lane speed limiters to control car speeds under yellow flags, amongst other things.

Subscriber only, alas. Joe Saward's piece is worth a look. http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/10/ ... -incident/

I'm not sure why everyone is so focused on the tractor. If a F1 car is off and marshals are on the track attending the accident then no other F1 car should be in the area or even at risk of entering the area. The tractor is a side issue that seems to be getting all the attention. If a car can hit a tractor, then there is a much higher chance that it could take out a marshal. In this even, a few meters difference could have meant two or three marshals being killed. The marshals have no protection and their attention is focused on the crashed car / driver. In some respects the tractor is a good thing to have there as it offers some protection to the marshals.

The following argument that marshals should not be on the track is also flawed, given that in the case of a severe accident, seconds may be all that is between saving the drivers life. aka Mika Hakkinen. Waiting for a safety car to control the field is too much risk if a driver is injured. The yellow flags are there to control car speed at dangerous points in the race, the issue is the drivers are pushing too hard through yellow flags. Setting a time 0.1 seconds slower than your best personal sector time though a yellow sector is ridiculous. That driver has hardly backed off. With Double waved yellows, they should be down to 120km in those rainy conditions and half the field went through at race pace. Relying on F1 drivers to self regulate and slow down is just not going to happen unless there are severe penalties and the culture is changed.

I think the technology is there so that race officials can control race speed electronically and remotely. As soon as a sector goes yellow, all cars are reduced to a designated percentage speed through that sector. The higher the risk, or the worst the conditions then the larger the reduction in speed. If some of the field looses time in that sector then it's tough... Safety has to come first.

I'm hoping the best recovery for Jules Bianchi. No-one ever wants to see this sort of accident take place and it brings home just how dangerous motorsport can be.

I suppose it's quite possible that Jules came off because he saw the yellow flags and the tractor and slowed down. Slowing down could mean he lost downforce from the aero and that caused the aquaplaning.

manga_blue wrote:I suppose it's quite possible that Jules came off because he saw the yellow flags and the tractor and slowed down. Slowing down could mean he lost downforce from the aero and that caused the aquaplaning.

I don't know the track but you'd expect the first waved double yellows would have been a fair way back. If you have a look at the sector times of the other cars whilst Sutil's car was sitting there, the times aren't much slower than previous green flag times. Wouldn't you expect a 2 second difference in the conditions?

If when a F1 car slows down a little, there is less downforce and more chance of aquaplaning on a very wet track you'd expect the drivers to take that into consideration and slow down lots more to compensate. I'm not sure that argument works though, as less speed makes it easier for the tyres to remove the water which would surely overcome the loss of downforce. Doesn't the inverse of that argument mean that the wetter a track gets the faster the cars should be going so that they can get more grip?

One of the suggestions I've seen a few times in analysis of this incident is the use of the pit lane speed limiter (or equivalent if a different speed is required) to control the pace through a sector under yellows or double waved yellows. It's a good idea that warrants further thought. As madjak said in a post above, a lot of the drivers were passing through this sector posting times very close (less than a second slower) than their previous lap before it went yellow. Massa said he was "screaming" for the race to be stopped 5 laps earlier. Where the incident was just at the end of S1, his S1 and S2 times were 0.07 and 0.34 slower once the double waved yellows came out. It's all well and good to have the drivers go 'slower' in certain conditions but to what degree seems pretty arbitrary.

The policy under yellows or double waved yellows may warrant some further review for the safety of the marshals. In the video you can see the marshal track side of the tractor see Bianchi coming and leap out of the way. This is after Germany where marshals were running across the racing line to recover a car.

Unprotected people in a run off zone = red flag.

Unprotected people + car + tonnes of solid JCB in a run off zone = double waved reds, announcements to drivers from all pit lanes, and anything else possible.

In most F1 races, there are marshals on the track recovering cars, or drivers exiting cars at least 3-4 times a race. The only races there aren't are where they have cranes everywhere. The drivers and the cars are good enough to be able to exist on track whilst recoveries take place, they just can't be on the limit in that section, or in an overtaking maneuver where there is chance of collision with other cars.

The last 20 years has seen a good safety track record, and I don't think things have to totally change, I just think the drivers need to use the flags as intended, rather than basically ignore them like they do now. A double waved yellow basically means extreme caution... depending on the situation, slow down so that you can drive by sight and and at a speed where you can stop if there is a requirement. You certainly shouldn't see cars going around a blind corner at 200kph+ in the wet past an active recovery where a car just recently aquaplaned off.