Heel toe vs heel toe double de clutch

[marcusus]

So there's a nice debate going on in the mania wakefield day thread regarding this topic. The long and short of it is I do a full heel toe double de clutch, whereas Sasso just does a heel toe (no clutch in/out whilst shifting whilst doing heal toe).

What are the pros and cons of each? Are there any other tricky footyplay things you can do on the track that are useful? What do you use personally on and off track?

[stevesports]

i don't understand why you are letting go of the clutch twice.
if you are rev matching on the downshift then letting go of the clutch after you have shifted should be fine. If you are rev matching on the upshift then i don't see the necessity since modern gearboxes are equipped with synchromeshes.

[JBT]

Double declutching is completely unnecessary with a synchromesh transmission and costs time during track type driving.

However, \"rev matching\" when changing to a lower gear is a good thing even with synchromesh for smooth changes and to reduce drive line stress. It can be achieved by simply blipping the throttle whilst the clutch pedal is depressed during gear change down.

Smooth changes are especially good when changing down and applying the brakes during track type activities - heel/toeing is the art of doing this. It also helps to prevent compression lock up - not a good look as you're about to enter a corner.

You can rev match on change down without braking if a gentle speed reduction is anticipated or if you have already braked. This technique can be applied in day to day driving.

Nothing is required during a change to a higher gear.

[Alex]

not sure what I do on the track becase i'm not really thinking about it

on the street I do both because it's more interesting

[Mokesta]

The 5s pedals are not spaced for me to easily heal-toe. When driving my mini, I always heal-toe and double de-clutch. It became habit when learning to drive on a car with no working synchros on 2nd and third. The full sequence is slower in a car with working synchros but faster if they're not.

As said above, it is just another thing to try, it takes concentration and is very satisfying to get right, so you can have fun while cruising along at legal speeds.

BTW, what do other 5 owners do about pedal spacing? I find the distance between bake and accel too great.

M

[JBT]

what do other 5 owners do about pedal spacing?

Fine for me on all models.

[marcusus]

Just to be clear, this is what I'm doing, and what I consider as a heel toe double de clutch.

1 - foot on brake and held on for the remaining steps, with foot positioned over the accelerator ready for the blip.
2 - clutch in
3 - out of whatever gear I'm in
4 - clutch out
5 - blip accelerator pedal to appropriate revs
6 - clutch in
7 - in to the lower gear I want to change to
8 - clutch out

That's also what I do when I'm driving on the street.

So does a double clutch involve blipping the throttle, or is a double clutch purely putting the clutch in, doing the gear change, then taking the clutch out? I was always under the impressiong that a double clutch included the throttle blip, but the way everyone's explaining it makes me think I'm doing more than just a double clutch.

[fattima]

what do other 5 owners do about pedal spacing?

I have fitted an OMP pedal to the accelerator, I found the gap between the brake and accelerator to big for my style of heel and toe.

marcusus

Sounds like a normal double de clutch to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch

[JBT]

Marcusus, what you're doing is double declutching and it's a good method for old \"crash boxes\" or if your synchros are stuffed.

However, you only need to do steps 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 with a synchro box. This is rev matching only.

[marcusus]

However, you only need to do steps 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 with a synchro box. This is rev matching only.

I don't need to take the car out of gear before I put it into a new one?

If I leave the clutch in whilst I blip the throttle, won't I get a much bigger jolt when I let the clutch out similar to if I changed gears like joe blogs? I thought there was a requirement to actually have the car in neutral and the car out? What are the mechanics of double clutching in relation to having a synchro mesh?

[Okibi]

If it's taking you longer to go down a gear after blipping the throttle (because you're also using the clutch) then I assume you have to blip the throttle even more and to try and rev match.

It must be harder to try and time it all.

I understand why you people double declutch but i've seen much more powerful MX-5s last for almost 19 years on the oem box.

[JBT]

No jolt if you match the revs to the gear. It's simply clutch in, change/blip, clutch out - all in one second or less.

[Hot Rodders]

The 5s pedals are not spaced for me to easily heal-toe. When driving my mini, I always heal-toe and double de-clutch. It became habit when learning to drive on a car with no working synchros on 2nd and third. The full sequence is slower in a car with working synchros but faster if they're not.

As said above, it is just another thing to try, it takes concentration and is very satisfying to get right, so you can have fun while cruising along at legal speeds.

BTW, what do other 5 owners do about pedal spacing? I find the distance between bake and accel too great.

M

I tend to roll the ankle between the pedals as I find the spacing between pedals ideal for this.

[Steampunk]

I can't heel-n-toe to save my life. I try though, and have done it well a few times.

I actually realised that not only is the gap too far away for me, but the brake pedal sits too low when pressed, in other words, I have to lift my heel as well as rolling it to the right. Pretty unco.

I'll adjust the brake pedal position this weekend.

[JBT]

The term \"heel/toe\" is pretty loose in that most people don't use their heel on the loud pedal. It's generally rolling the foot so that you press it with the side of your foot sort of in the heel area while continuing to brake.