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Okay - COW time here...

I just got off the phone to cams technical services - the question I posed was regarding eligibility of style bars and roll bars that are not schedule J compliant.

cams schedule J allows a non compliant structure to be used for a club/multiclub event in a road registered vehicle at the discretion of the stewards of the event. this of course is up to the individual steward(s) feelings about rollover protection.

As a club scrut I would probably be asked for my opinion to assist the steward in their decision making process and this is what I would say:

schedule J drawing type 1 or 2 (page 6-28 of the 2005 manual) (im still awaiting my 2006 manual):

would be acceptable if made of aluminium or steel - sch J specifies specific steels but I would accept your shiny alloy brown davis rollbar without a problem because it has backstays to prevent it folding over and squishing you (kinda like the folding restraints one would find on a rollercoaster)


your typical ebay style 'style bar' would not be acceptable coz it can squish you due to the fact that it has no backstays at all, and is probably made out of water pipe or thinner. Granted, if you and your car are in a position to be worrying about the directional rigidity of your stylebar you are in deepdeep trouble, but things would be complicated enough to wish they werent more so...

in this case I would like to see it removed before you go out on the track and start sizzling your tyres.



Why this post?

I noted a decent sized discussion a few weeks ago regarding strength and suitability of style bars etc, and their suitability (or lack thereof) for competition. Those of you who compete in victoria will undoubtedly have interacted with me before and know that I wave my clipboard around with the intention of making everyones day fun and safe. A bleak reminder of the hazards facing us on the track was very publicly displayed at round #7, and i would rather spoil your day by asking you to remove the style bar in the morning than have the style bar spoil your day if you get your corner seriously wrong.

Having said that, I can only speak for events run by my club (aroca vic) - all clubs have their own officials and they may be harsher or softer in their interpretation of the regs than I.

just remember to carry that 7/16\" socket with you, just in case

see you all out on the track!

rain902 wrote:.......your typical ebay style 'style bar' would not be acceptable coz it can squish you due to the fact that it has no backstays at all, and is probably made out of water pipe or thinner.

So it's better to have nothing there at all? Driving with the roof up would be OK though even though there are a couple of bars there that could snap and skewer you through the ear in an accident. Please post photos of style bars that have collapsed forward during a roll over with name of manufacturer and a brief description of the rollover e.g. brand X - travelling forward - rolled right, brand Y - spun and rolled whilst travelling backwards, brand Z - flipped end for end.

JBT wrote:

rain902 wrote:.......your typical ebay style 'style bar' would not be acceptable coz it can squish you due to the fact that it has no backstays at all, and is probably made out of water pipe or thinner.

So it's better to have nothing there at all? Driving with the roof up would be OK though even though there are a couple of bars there that could snap and skewer you through the ear in an accident. Please post photos of style bars that have collapsed forward during a roll over with name of manufacturer and a brief description of the rollover e.g. brand X - travelling forward - rolled right, brand Y - spun and rolled whilst travelling backwards, brand Z - flipped end for end.

*sigh* yes, as far as cams is concerned it is better to have nothing at all.

liken this to harnesses for a moment - i would rather have a (slightly) out of date 6 point harness holding onto me than a lap/sash seatbelt, but as far as the coroner and the insurers are concerned its a verrry big no no - i dont make the rules, im just charged with seeing that they are complied with.

i have never seen a style bar bend over and kill anyone, but as i said a few weeks ago i have no desire to front the coroner and explain why i let something pass that looks nothing like what the governing body says is acceptable.

There was some talk of late that the BD roll bars are getting pinged by CAMS officials such as yourself as when the person is seated in the car their helmet was within 2 inches of the rollbar. Sound right to you?

Craig

P.S. Asking as intereseted, not out to shoot the messenger...appreciate your time in helping us out!

The last advice I had relating to roll bars when competing in a CAMS Competition event (such as the NSW Supersprint series) was.

The bar had to comply with the 2006 CAMS manual specification, simply put it had to have back stays (as per the Brown Davis bar) and had to be CAMS certified (as per BD), to comply it must be made of steel.

The steel BD bar fitted to MX-5's, does comply, however. The bar is designed to allow use of the Soft/hardtop and as such the top bar is low.

Additionally, the CAMS rule states that the top of the helmet must be a minimum 2\" below the top of the bar, so unless you are under 5'6\" you have no hope at all in a standard seat.

I was advised that unless I lowered myself in the vehicle to comply then I would not make it onto the track at the next round. Not worth investing in the cost of the day just to have scrutineers say you can't compete, a rather expensive entry fee to watch others having fun.

To achieve this I would need to fit a suitable seat (this would then move my otherwise standard vehicle to the modified class) or take the seat padding out of a standard seat (in a roll over accident this would probably save my head but break my back) to lower myself in the vehicle.

Clearly, CAMS has a responsibility to have a look at the MX-5 in particular and put out a clear ruling on what is acceptable, that way individuals can make an informed decission on what they need to do to compete. That will then releive the scruitineer of the task of making judgements on what is and is not acceptable and let them get on with the job.

Murky waters

baron

Just to clarify (?) this a bit, Red Baron's comments relate to State level speed events (ie the NSW Supersprint Championship series), as of the first round scrutineering outcomes at OP earlier this month.

The steel BD is fine, the problem is that unless you are a shorty (like me ), you will have difficulty in ensuring that the top of your helmet is the necessary 50mm below the top of the bar - and if you are running a standard seat, and you are of medium heighth or bigger, well you will have to take out a few vertabrae for the day

This may be subject to some further clarification, as my understanding is that the impact of this requirement on road-registered (esp standard - ie unmodified) cars is being taken up with those who decide/apply these requirements - ie the accessibility of the sport to our cars, given the practical limits on rollbar heigth and seat placement. I am not involved in this, so will not make any further comment on it.

Club and multi-club events are not subject to the same CAMS requirement, but as in other matters check the supp regs for individual events.

Craig wrote:There was some talk of late that the BD roll bars are getting pinged by CAMS officials such as yourself as when the person is seated in the car their helmet was within 2 inches of the rollbar. Sound right to you?

Craig

P.S. Asking as intereseted, not out to shoot the messenger...appreciate your time in helping us out!

yes, ive been known to ping a cage for being too close to the drivers head - my own car is off the track pending reconstruction of my seat mounts, coz my head is waaay too close to the top forward bars for my liking. Anyone who has ever seen the result of a head vs cage or interior collision will relate with scruts that are ballbreakers when it comes to cages.

rain902 wrote: - my own car is off the track pending reconstruction of my seat mounts, coz my head is waaay too close to the top forward bars for my liking. .

Can we assume that your car is a log booked race car? This is where the discrepincy is. For a standard (according to Cams) road car as I understand it, the bar is not required at all. I have a steel BD because it's the sensible thing to do.

However there are two defined sets of rules depending on what sort of car you have and club scrutineers are crossing between different classes. This is where the problem lies.

Samselectrics wrote:

rain902 wrote: - my own car is off the track pending reconstruction of my seat mounts, coz my head is waaay too close to the top forward bars for my liking. .

Can we assume that your car is a log booked race car? This is where the discrepincy is. For a standard (according to Cams) road car as I understand it, the bar is not required at all. I have a steel BD because it's the sensible thing to do.

However there are two defined sets of rules depending on what sort of car you have and club scrutineers are crossing between different classes. This is where the problem lies.

My racecar is logbookable, but isnt - it doesnt qualify for historics or marque sports so i have nowhere to race the thing, so it remains a roadregistered thing. I will get around to logbooking it if only to protect me from changes to the rollover requirements. Interesting to note that my 6point rollcage is both cams compliant and vicroads compliant - (thats a fine balance) but the forward bars are too close for comfort, as opposed to too close for the regulations.

there are two sets of rules according to race or road registered cars, but the line between them is blurred . Sure, ive examined all sorts of strange and wonderful cars @ state and national events but my 'thing' is making sure that the road registered cars at club events (people in the same boat as me) can go out and have a good time, and drive home happily in the same car they competed in.

You are right, as a road registered car in club sprints not much safety equipment is required - you can run with lap/sash and no roll bar and be perfectly legal.


The problem lies in when stuff gets added to the car - it then has to conform to the rules that apply to those things.

Ive heard the argument before - someone rocks up with an out of date FIA harness, i tell em they cant run with it and they argue that its safer than using the lap/sash harness that came with their car - they are in all probability right - but as the manufacturer, FIA and cams imposes an expiry date on it, who gets the big stick if soething goes wrong? I would hate to see an insurance claim disallowed because of a non conforming roll bar, or an out of date harness, and I would not like to expose myself, the organising club and you (the competitor) to all manner of legal misery due to an insurance companies opinion of non compliance.

I do try and be understanding of the requirements of road registered cars - i drive my car to the track, compete and drive home as well - but i am required to follow the regs. People have asked me to look the other way regarding some issue on their car before - but what sort of friend would I be if I didnt draw your attention to something that could hurt you in the wrong circumstances? Ive been abused by competitors (no mx5 drivers have been guilty of this) for refusing to sign off their cars due to safety regs - ive also been leaned on by stewards @ a state event to 'find a reason' to exclude a car - twas a strange car - but as an official and fellow competitor i would like you all to remember that i get up before dawn as well, and spend all day at an event - for free - so that we can do what it is that we enjoy doing. if there were no volunteers we would all have to pay more for our track days so that appropriate officials could be paid. Just coz im doing it for free doesnt mean that i care any less or take it any less seriously. I try and keep up with technical regs and i attend courses in my own time so that i have the knowledge to do my job properly, and hopefully make everyones day a good one.

Rain,

There's no question as to your level of commitment to the clubs. I've been to lots and lots of AROCA days and you do a great job. Lots of us volunteer our services to our clubs for scrutineering, instucting and general duties and without the skilled competent volunteers, our days just wouldn't happen. So I apolagize if you felt I was saying otherwise.

There are two defined sets of rules for road and race cars. Clubs, in the best interest of their members, have chosen to find an area in the middle. For example the rule where 2 inches from above the helmet to the line from roll bar to bonnet is enforced but we are not required to have forward suport posts. A 3 inch CAMS approved harness which is out of date is not sutable but a 2 inch harness from Super crap autos with no date tag is ok. And when going between clubs there is a different interpretation to these rules yet again.

As a longer term member of the motorsport fraternity in our club, I get asked about rules and regs. Threads like this one pose the question as to the future of our sport because if we are going to be treated as race cars and made to have complying roll bars then our option is to either buy a different car of take the roof off and pray for sunshine.

I feel the real reason that things are getting stricter is because we now have big budget cars showing up to sprints that are only a couple of seconds slower than a V8 super car. I feel that maybe some of these cars should be treated as race cars.

Anyway. My 2c

*oops* double post

Samselectrics wrote:Rain,

There's no question as to your level of commitment to the clubs. I've been to lots and lots of AROCA days and you do a great job. Lots of us volunteer our services to our clubs for scrutineering, instucting and general duties and without the skilled competent volunteers, our days just wouldn't happen. So I apolagize if you felt I was saying otherwise.

There are two defined sets of rules for road and race cars. Clubs, in the best interest of their members, have chosen to find an area in the middle. For example the rule where 2 inches from above the helmet to the line from roll bar to bonnet is enforced but we are not required to have forward suport posts. A 3 inch CAMS approved harness which is out of date is not sutable but a 2 inch harness from Super crap autos with no date tag is ok. And when going between clubs there is a different interpretation to these rules yet again.

As a longer term member of the motorsport fraternity in our club, I get asked about rules and regs. Threads like this one pose the question as to the future of our sport because if we are going to be treated as race cars and made to have complying roll bars then our option is to either buy a different car of take the roof off and pray for sunshine.

I feel the real reason that things are getting stricter is because we now have big budget cars showing up to sprints that are only a couple of seconds slower than a V8 super car. I feel that maybe some of these cars should be treated as race cars.

Anyway. My 2c

Of course I took no offence at your words Sam - I wrote the explanation coz only a dozen competitors on this forum have actually met me - the rest of the readers could have misconstrued my words as the ramblings of a maniac - it was also to give an indication of the effort put into the sport by officials that have the best interests of us low budget road registered drivers at heart. Of course when I say "I" i mean "all officials" - not just me. the executives at a clubsprint are excluded from competition on the day - thats why you see me wandering around the island without a car all day! Doent change the fact that I still have to get to/from the event etc.

I appreciate the efforts that you guys make as well - waving a flag for 15 minutes helps keep the costs down, and makes life so much easier for all!

I did raise the issue of cost etc with the cams fellow the other day - a 400 harness would come out of petty cash on a supercar team (and is likely to be used and discarded before it sees its use by date), but is a big chunk of our budget. Same goes for a HANS device - that would be my whole yearly budget for away meetings - entries/accomodation/fuel etc...

the cams fellow did say that they were looking into clarifying the rules for road registered cars - they are aware that its a big issue with us. Having said that, if we can afford to buy the good safety bits, then we should - just coz we have a number plate doesnt mean that we are going slowly!


Another issue that needs to be addressed is the updating of individual club supp regs to match the cams manual. Eg the current cams regs state that road registered cars in an event other than a race may utilise the manufacturers bonnet catch without the need for a supplementary restraint. Just about everybodys supp regs impose the requirement for a supp restraint simply coz it hasnt been updated by the clubs competition secretary in recent years. I know my club is guilty of this one! (and im trying to change it)

As for race cars - if someone can afford several acres of carbon fibre on their car (err a certain black ferrari that you would have seen today) then they have to meet the rules to a T - not coz they are rolling in $$$, but coz they are ffast. I chose to spend my $ on safety first, then started spending $$ on speed (till i ran out of $$ ) If you have an infringing thing on your registered car - eg magnetic numbers and triangle (not permitted, schedule K 9.4) I will mention it to you, but am not going to exclude you on that basis. Having said that, if the magnetic number flies off you will most probably miss some times and if the steward finds you (s)he will give you a lecture 'bout it. You have no idea how many magnetic numbers we have retrieved from the end of the island front straight!


I like this thread coz everyones reading it - gives all an insight into the reasons behind the rules and costs that we confront whenever we rock up to a track.

Great thread Rain! Cost in club level motorsport is going to be a big issue in the immediate future, particularly when the drift and drag fraternity seem to have a really good grasp of the problem and offer good value for money. One interesting point some may not be aware of is that the HANS device has a very narrow angle of effectiveness - it is basically built to save the driver from a head on crash, they are not particularly effective at reducing injury in a side impact, or any other direction than head on.

Gee I'd hate to see the standards applied to club level drift and drag cars applied to road racing. It would be like letting all QLD and Vic cars instantly pass a NSW pink slip!!! (no offence mexicans and canadians) Their standards are way below those of road racing and it would introduce a much higher level of risk to the sport. Mind you, sometimes I reckon I am in the minority when considering safety and my car. For example, I can't believe they let V8 supercars continue racing after major shunts - like the 2nd one that could have been a lot worse for Bowey at Puke. A car should at least have a full visual inspection after a decent shunt. At least then the obvious stuff can be detected.

Safety is critical but there also needs to be a sensible balance otherwise we will further kill our sport with cost. I hope it doesn't get that bad.