Heel toe vs heel toe double de clutch

[Spranga]

Also spranga, I was watching your eastern creek video on youtube and, I'm a bit confused because it doesn't even sound like you were rev matching at all, you would hit the throttle and engine would rev, then revs would drop, then you let the clutch out and revs would rise again.

My car has a stock exhaust so you can only hear the engine in the video when it is under load. So I have no idea how you can tell what the revs are doing or when the clutch is going in or out as you cannot see my legs or most of the tacho.... more assumptions perhaps????

To me that defeats the purpose because the engine is putting pressure on the rear wheels, and since your car didn't lose control and lock the rears I think I can safely say you weren't braking on the limit. Were you ddcing because it looked like it was taking too long and the revs would drop by the time you get it into gear and release the clutch (for the second time).

More wild assumptions....

Please don't take offence I wasnt trying to have a go at you, your driving was pretty good I thought, its just something I noticed the first time I watched the video.
Its just a bit of diagnosing, to help improvement.
They're not wild assumptions they are educated inferences based on the data and my experience.
Turn up your speakers you can always hear the engine humming, the intake induction it sounds like, unless thats some other random noise that sounds exactly like an engine.
Watch the first 30 seconds, braking for first second corner, you blipped, heard that, then goes dull and at 25-26 seconds you hear the hum increase in pitch/volume and then drop slightly then hear you hit the throttle at a pitch that matches where the hum left off. That hum sounds exactly like you letting out the clutch and raising the engine revs using the wheels. I only watched 2 laps and you seemed to do it every time, but I'm not sure if you changed your technique later in the vid (my internet sux).
That is a safe assumption given that the sound im hearing is the engine and it sure as does sound like it, I have no idea what else it could be.

I think you have made too many assumptions there as the engine sound is hardly detectable. How can you say that one engine rev is throttle related and another is wheel related you would have to hear driveline sounds to determine the difference. BTW I was actually quite cautious with my braking in all those videos as my fluid was old, boiling and my stopping power unpredictable. Normally I would enjoy braking a little later and closer the car in front but it was not worth giving someone a whack at a track day.

[Sasso]

You've broken the thread man!

But that's not the point. Re read it. The point is that you're on the brakes for 3 seconds. If you're spending 1 second changing gear (irrespective of ddc or non ddc) it means you're braking for more time than changing gear. What you're trying to do is slow the car down via braking, not via engine braking. The gear is only for your exit speed. So if the braking is taking a longer time than a gear change, what difference does it make if you do a smoother change by doing a ddc or a non ddc? You're still braking by the same amount because you're still heel toeing.

You are perfectly correct. But what my point is that in most cases you won't be braking by the same amount because it takes a lot of dedication to brake on the limit and its hard to do while dancing on the pedals.

And who's to say my double clutch isn't fast enough anyway?

I'm to say. Not all corners are like that, some corners require you to downshift very quickly, and you won't be able to ddc in time or else you're just not going fast enough, see my previous post about EC.

You just contradicted yourself
Less time spent downshifting = shifting from 4th to 2nd.
More time spent downshifting = shifting from 4th to 3rd then 3rd to 2nd.
If you ddc, you only need to do this stuff once, rather than twice, thus allowing you more time to concentrate on braking and everything else, as you put it. If you don't ddc, you'll have more to do on the gears which will result in less time for everything else.

What are you talking about, you can still jump gates without ddc, lol! In that case it would make going 4th to 2nd even quicker with normal heel toe. But yes if you can, stay in the gear as long as you can so you don't have to shift upshift then downshift.

The same is true for both ddc and non ddc, so it makes no difference to this debate. In the end, we all still need to perform a gear down operation, so this part is common for both methods and can't be factored into the debate.

Simple fact is heel toe is quicker than DDC allowing more time concentrating on the brakes, I'm repeating myself.

I would use 4th if I was going fast enough to make gains on the speed wipe in an upshift, but because I'm still new to Wakfield and the track, I decided against it. So again this is too subjectively based around the track itself rather than on the theory of ddc vs non ddc.

If you havent hit the limiter in 3rd then there is no gains to be made shifting to 4th except that you have an extra downshift or gate jump that makes shifting longer and braking harder. That corner is just an example.

This is a good debate. I dont' think you're boasting or doing anything silly like that at all. It's simply a group of drivers that enjoy the track having a good debate about the merits of ddc vs non ddc.

Looks like some people don't agree...

[Spranga]

I found that going down the back straight at eastern creek arriving at the second last corner (kink to the right and then turn hard left), I'd be in 4th and have to downshift to 3rd because I'd hit the 3rd limiter before the corner, you take the right hander flat then just before you turn left you stab the brakes hard and short and turn, but you have to downshift in that time of literally a second on the brakes, while turning slightly at high speeds, if I don't rev match and slowly let out the clutch the rear dont lock but slip and lose traction, gets all sideways and I lost it going into the fast left and flew off the track. Then I started to revmatch there and it made the braking SO much more stable. I don't think you could ddc in that short amount of braking time, and you can't just stay in 3rd.

Matching the revs is very important, did you see that skyline at ec twilight night completely wrecked because he downshifted at the end of the straight, lost the rear, hit the inside wall and ploughed into the tyre barriers at the end of the straight going extremely fast.

I agree entirely re unsettling the rear end with harsh clutch release. I think I was the one who actually first mentioned it in reference to this post. I still believe DDC can minimise this effect however.

BUT I have to concede that I do not take the kink before the straight at EC very efficiently as it requires a very quick squeeze of the brakes and a quick gear change like you mention... I have been off there once many years ago but I don't think I have time to DDC on that one

[Sasso]

Mate I find this an astonishing comment. There are some fantastic drivers on this forum but I am sure none of them would consider rating other forumites driving with such superficial analysis. I don't claim to be the best driver on the forum and I would certainly not cast judgment on the skills of others without a very sound reasons.

You should probably know that marcus and I are friends, and I've seen him drive, so I'm not judging some random forum member, I'm not blaming him either because I've been in his position moved on so I can offer advice to help him get through. I know marcus won't take offence, I just though it'd be ok to use his situation as an example since he's the one asking about it. Just trying to help my buddy out, he is just being stubborn hehe, didn't mean to offend anyone or make them angry, sorry Spranger.

Markus if you do't like heel toe for some strange reason keep doing ddc if you like and concentrate on braking and lines, then when or if it becomes an impedance change your technique.

[Spranga]

Mate I find this an astonishing comment. There are some fantastic drivers on this forum but I am sure none of them would consider rating other forumites driving with such superficial analysis. I don't claim to be the best driver on the forum and I would certainly not cast judgment on the skills of others without a very sound reasons.

You should probably know that marcus and I are friends, and I've seen him drive, so I'm not judging some random forum member, I'm not blaming him either because I've been in his position moved on so I can offer advice to help him get through. I know marcus won't take offence, I just though it'd be ok to use his situation as an example since he's the one asking about it.

Fair enough

[marcusus]

You've broken the thread man!

New pages fix everything

You are perfectly correct. But what my point is that in most cases you won't be braking by the same amount because it takes a lot of dedication to brake on the limit and its hard to do while dancing on the pedals.

But your left foot is sitting there doing nothing whilst you're doing heel toe anyway. So you should be braking by the same amount irrespective of ddc or no ddc. In the end, you still blip at the same time and the same amount. It's just that your left foot does some work as well. Keeps it fit. You don't want a giant right leg muscle and a puny left leg one do you?

I'm to say. Not all corners are like that, some corners require you to downshift very quickly, and you won't be able to ddc in time or else you're just not going fast enough, see my previous post about EC.

This is true. In the end we're basing this discussion too much on specific track rather than just theory, which is what's throwing us. It's turning into a "I do Wakefield like this" thread.

In situations where incredibly fast shifts are required, I don't think I'd even bother with a heel toe, let alone a heel toe ddc.

What are you talking about, you can still jump gates without ddc, lol! In that case it would make going 4th to 2nd even quicker with normal heel toe. But yes if you can, stay in the gear as long as you can so you don't have to shift upshift then downshift.

Of course you can. However going from 4th to 2nd without a ddc is fairly tough at high revs. If you add the ddc in there, the gear glides in with no effort. That still equates to more time on the steering wheel, even if it's only a fraction. But in the end, that's what we're dealing with in this conversation anyway.

If you havent hit the limiter in 3rd then there is no gains to be made shifting to 4th except that you have an extra downshift or gate jump that makes shifting longer and braking harder. That corner is just an example.

Exactly. That's why I didn't shift to 4th on the club run day.

[Sasso]

Also spranga, I was watching your eastern creek video on youtube and, I'm a bit confused because it doesn't even sound like you were rev matching at all, you would hit the throttle and engine would rev, then revs would drop, then you let the clutch out and revs would rise again.

My car has a stock exhaust so you can only hear the engine in the video when it is under load. So I have no idea how you can tell what the revs are doing or when the clutch is going in or out as you cannot see my legs or most of the tacho.... more assumptions perhaps????

To me that defeats the purpose because the engine is putting pressure on the rear wheels, and since your car didn't lose control and lock the rears I think I can safely say you weren't braking on the limit. Were you ddcing because it looked like it was taking too long and the revs would drop by the time you get it into gear and release the clutch (for the second time).

More wild assumptions....

Please don't take offence I wasnt trying to have a go at you, your driving was pretty good I thought, its just something I noticed the first time I watched the video.
Its just a bit of diagnosing, to help improvement.
They're not wild assumptions they are educated inferences based on the data and my experience.
Turn up your speakers you can always hear the engine humming, the intake induction it sounds like, unless thats some other random noise that sounds exactly like an engine.
Watch the first 30 seconds, braking for first second corner, you blipped, heard that, then goes dull and at 25-26 seconds you hear the hum increase in pitch/volume and then drop slightly then hear you hit the throttle at a pitch that matches where the hum left off. That hum sounds exactly like you letting out the clutch and raising the engine revs using the wheels. I only watched 2 laps and you seemed to do it every time, but I'm not sure if you changed your technique later in the vid (my internet sux).
That is a safe assumption given that the sound im hearing is the engine and it sure as does sound like it, I have no idea what else it could be.

I think you have made too many assumptions there as the engine sound is hardly detectable. How can you say that one engine rev is throttle related and another is wheel related you would have to hear driveline sounds to determine the difference. BTW I was actually quite cautious with my braking in all those videos as my fluid was old, boiling and my stopping power unpredictable. Normally I would enjoy braking a little later and closer the car in front but it was not worth giving someone a whack at a track day.

Perhaps. oh well It doesn't matter as long as you've got it right. I admit I was being cautious on that day too because I didn't want to slam into a wall, I ended up nearly doing just that in the dark in the last session.


Racing is fun don't you think. Later I'm going to go out and try ddcing on the street and see what its like, I feel a bit unco.

I should really do some study...

[Sasso]

You've broken the thread man!

New pages fix everything

But your left foot is sitting there doing nothing whilst you're doing heel toe anyway. So you should be braking by the same amount irrespective of ddc or no ddc. In the end, you still blip at the same time and the same amount. It's just that your left foot does some work as well. Keeps it fit. You don't want a giant right leg muscle and a puny left leg one do you?

This is true. In the end we're basing this discussion too much on specific track rather than just theory, which is what's throwing us. It's turning into a "I do Wakefield like this" thread.

In situations where incredibly fast shifts are required, I don't think I'd even bother with a heel toe, let alone a heel toe ddc.

Of course you can. However going from 4th to 2nd without a ddc is fairly tough at high revs. If you add the ddc in there, the gear glides in with no effort. That still equates to more time on the steering wheel, even if it's only a fraction. But in the end, that's what we're dealing with in this conversation anyway.

Exactly. That's why I didn't shift to 4th on the club run day.

Well wakefield is a common enthusiasts track and a good example because its not that complex. I also used eastern creek, another good example since it has lots of downshifting.

Lol actually your right doesn't move much because it stays planted at full throttle 90% of the time.

In situations where incredibly fast shifts are required, I don't think I'd even bother with a heel toe, let alone a heel toe ddc.

You can't do this, please read what happenss if you don't, the eastern creek example.

I recon you can downshift twice using normal hell toe, 4th 3rd 2nd in the same time or quicker than you can shift straight from 4th to 2nd using ddc, its a bold claim...but just might be possible. You push the clutch the same number of times

[Spranga]

I should really do some study...

Ha ha.... yeah back to home renovations for me. I have been checking for your responses between fitting new skirting board in our living room. It has been a nice diversion but I think my wife is beginning to wonder why it is taking so long to finish.

[Sasso]

ehehehe, renovations...funness. Marcus what are you meant to be doing?

[marcusus]

Lol actually your right doesn't move much because it stays planted at full throttle 90% of the time.

Wuh? What's this in reference to?

I recon you can downshift twice using normal hell toe, 4th 3rd 2nd in the same time or quicker than you can shift straight from 4th to 2nd using ddc, its a bold claim...but just might be possible. You push the clutch the same number of times

Feel like going for a drive and we can prove it?

ehehehe, renovations...funness. Marcus what are you meant to be doing?

I'm working on a project that needs to be completed by the end of Monday for work. It's coming along alright, but I need a bit of a break to help support concentration. This ties in with my sentence above

[Sasso]

Lol actually your right doesn't move much because it stays planted at full throttle 90% of the time.

Wuh? What's this in reference to?

I recon you can downshift twice using normal hell toe, 4th 3rd 2nd in the same time or quicker than you can shift straight from 4th to 2nd using ddc, its a bold claim...but just might be possible. You push the clutch the same number of times

Feel like going for a drive and we can prove it?

ehehehe, renovations...funness. Marcus what are you meant to be doing?

I'm working on a project that needs to be completed by the end of Monday for work. It's coming along alright, but I need a bit of a break to help support concentration. This ties in with my sentence above

It was in reference to you needing to ddc simply because your right leg was getting bigger than your left.

Yeh sure if you wanna go for a drive come over. I really haven't done much study but still got rest of the night, and tomorrow and monday.
You can bring your camera and get some shots for the comp
Hey and you can help me out with circuit analysis.

[Sasso]

Actually I just went down to subway in the 6mps and tried some ddcing, its retarded lol, and you're wrong about having to rev the same amount, you don't, you have to rev more because you have to rev while the clutch is out. So you'd put it in neutral clutch out rev-clutch in - gear - clutch out as opposed to heel toe, clutch in - rev/gear - clutch out. So you have to rev harder in ddc to compensate for the extra clutch movement. Also when youre gate jumping you have to rev alot harder because the rpms are lower and thats a problem because you have to be blipping for longer and that can affect your brake modulation.
Like I've said, feels like an aweful waste of time to me, all to make it go into gear more easily.

[marcusus]

Also when youre gate jumping you have to rev alot harder because the rpms are lower and thats a problem because you have to be blipping for longer and that can affect your brake modulation.

By the same token, you need to rev harder if you heel toe if you're gonna gate jump too.

[Sasso]

Also when youre gate jumping you have to rev alot harder because the rpms are lower and thats a problem because you have to be blipping for longer and that can affect your brake modulation.

By the same token, you need to rev harder if you heel toe if you're gonna gate jump too.

Ahhh but you don't have to gate jump with heel and toe because its quick enough.

My you are tenacious. Why are you so into ddc other than because it sounds complicated and is a bit smoother, its not a racing technique and you're adamant its the best way.