Data logging

[takai]

Gee, you really want the world don't you.

Trolling makes you feel good, does it? FYI, looking for something to work 'out of the box' is not a big ask in my world. I already have two Aim options, if I have more I will be happy, if I don't I will choose between them.

The Racepak V-Net adapter isnt a hypothetical, it works perfectly on a mate's rally car with an SM3 and IQ3, nothing special about it. The only reason it is hypothetical for the CL1 is because they haven't given us any info at all on the CL1..

So, it is hypothetical, but it isn't. Riiight.

As for the RaceCapture, it says it allows for Serial logging, and the LUA is quite a powerful interface to be able to log what you want to log from a CAN/Serial interface rather than having to log everything and therefore taking up valuable clock cycles on logging things you don't care about.

Yes, you are right, I stand corrected. Buried in the documentation for the Track version is a reference to serial input, which requires programming. As I said earlier ...

I have no interest in becoming a programmer, and neither am I interested in pioneering solutions - I want something that works out of the box.

Race Capture may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but not for me.

So, trolling is now telling you that a device does what you want it to? And right on the main product page too. Riiight. Go off and buy your AIM option then.

As for Race Capture, has anyone used the software? I find that well over half the investment in a data logging solution isn't in the ability to capture from devices, but rather to analyse it. The RacePak IQ3 software was well in its infancy when I last used it, and was quite a pain for analysis. I hear that it has been substantially improved with the addition of panels etc, but I'm still hesitant for the CL1, especially as all the reviews only show basic information that Harrys/RaceChrono can give you.

I have a few friends who swear by the V-Box 20hz unit which allows synchronisation with RaceChrono/Harrys, but again few external inputs.

Although this does look interesting: http://www.racedac.com Gives more inputs than the CL1 or RaceCapture, but without CAN/OBD that most of our cars don't have anyway. Does look like a hell of a lot of work though.

[Magpie]

Here is a simple matrix I did up for an article... If is not fair to compare the CL1 (or anything) to Harry's Lap Timer. For data logging Harry's is the WORST. Again, for DATA LOGGING not lap timing.

At a minimum you would want to have at least 20Hz (20 samples per second) as a data rate. However, consider at 180kmh you are moving at 50m/sec, at a logging rate of 20Hz you will be recoding every 2.5m, a lot can happen in 2.5m on a racetrack. However at 500Hz which is every 0.1m whereas Harry will be about every 7m...

BUT, the data logging rate is very dependent on the ability of the sensor to send its data. For example a Stinger EGT probe has a 300 milli-second response time, hence it will only send a change a 3Hz, so there is no value in logging at 100 Hz. However, a Honeywell 0-2000 psi (Brake pressure sensor) has a 500 Hz response time.

Whilst the RaceDAC can log at 100Hz, this can be restricted by the choice of sensor...

[takai]

Here is a simple matrix I did up for an article... If is not fair to compare the CL1 (or anything) to Harry's Lap Timer. For data logging Harry's is the WORST. Again, for DATA LOGGING not lap timing.

At a minimum you would want to have at least 20Hz (20 samples per second) as a data rate. However, consider at 180kmh you are moving at 50m/sec, at a logging rate of 20Hz you will be recoding every 2.5m, a lot can happen in 2.5m on a racetrack. However at 500Hz which is every 0.1m whereas Harry will be about every 7m...

BUT, the data logging rate is very dependent on the ability of the sensor to send its data. For example a Stinger EGT probe has a 300 milli-second response time, hence it will only send a change a 3Hz, so there is no value in logging at 100 Hz. However, a Honeywell 0-2000 psi (Brake pressure sensor) has a 500 Hz response time.

Whilst the RaceDAC can log at 100Hz, this can be restricted by the choice of sensor...

You will probably want to add the VBox Sport to that list: http://www.vboxaustralia.com.au/vbox-sp ... tures.html as it is a far better comparison than the VBox Lite.

20hz GPS out of the box, and a really good analysis system (from what i gather) in Circuit Tools. At that point Harry's/RaceChrono is only doing display and feeding back the OBD2 sensors. The problem is often that the OBD2 push rate can be really variable. From mucking around with a mate's GT86 the refresh rate maxed out at about 5hz, even though the hardware could pull at 50hz. In comparison the LS Focus we used to have as a daily driver maxed out at about 1.5hz as it sent so much guff over the OBD2 connection. This would be a similar problem for the CL1 as it would for Harrys/RaceChrono.

[takai]

As a complete aside, perhaps the biggest disadvantage of all of these new systems is that most phones/tablets are capacitive touch now. Going to have to figure out some way to make the gloves work with capacitive screens. Perhaps an oldschool stylus on a string is the go

[Magpie]

You will probably want to add the VBox Sport to that list: http://www.vboxaustralia.com.au/vbox-sp ... tures.html as it is a far better comparison than the VBox Lite.

20hz GPS out of the box, and a really good analysis system (from what i gather) in Circuit Tools. At that point Harry's/RaceChrono is only doing display and feeding back the OBD2 sensors. The problem is often that the OBD2 push rate can be really variable. From mucking around with a mate's GT86 the refresh rate maxed out at about 5hz, even though the hardware could pull at 50hz. In comparison the LS Focus we used to have as a daily driver maxed out at about 1.5hz as it sent so much guff over the OBD2 connection. This would be a similar problem for the CL1 as it would for Harrys/RaceChrono.

We are not talking lap timing rather data logging hence the VBox Sport is not valid.

The CL1 allows external sensors to be added and does not rely upon ODB so it is again not in the same league as Harry's. Harry only allows ODB.

[SKYHI]

Maybe a little off topic, but if I wanted something to display lap timing and engine vitals from the MS3 PnP and/or external sensors, plus do some basic data logging for analysis post session. What sort of product would you guys recommend? Would be nice to incorporate shift lights into the display as well, but not absolutely necessary, as they can be rigged up independently without too much hassle.

[takai]

You will probably want to add the VBox Sport to that list: http://www.vboxaustralia.com.au/vbox-sp ... tures.html as it is a far better comparison than the VBox Lite.

20hz GPS out of the box, and a really good analysis system (from what i gather) in Circuit Tools. At that point Harry's/RaceChrono is only doing display and feeding back the OBD2 sensors. The problem is often that the OBD2 push rate can be really variable. From mucking around with a mate's GT86 the refresh rate maxed out at about 5hz, even though the hardware could pull at 50hz. In comparison the LS Focus we used to have as a daily driver maxed out at about 1.5hz as it sent so much guff over the OBD2 connection. This would be a similar problem for the CL1 as it would for Harrys/RaceChrono.

We are not talking lap timing rather data logging hence the VBox Sport is not valid.

The CL1 allows external sensors to be added and does not rely upon ODB so it is again not in the same league as Harry's. Harry only allows ODB.

GPS Lap timing and accelerometer data is an integral part of data logging, and after using my IQ3 with its 4hz GPS, and a mate's cellphone with RaceChrono with a 20hz GPS, i know which one i would choose. Sure, it needs extra hardware to pull in other sensors, but its a damn sight better than the 4hz IQ3, and should be considered in your table.

You should also add RaceChrono/RaceDac to your list, as it is a viable competitor, as are many of the AIM systems.

Maybe a little off topic, but if I wanted something to display lap timing and engine vitals from the MS3 PnP and/or external sensors, plus do some basic data logging for analysis post session. What sort of product would you guys recommend? Would be nice to incorporate shift lights into the display as well, but not absolutely necessary, as they can be rigged up independently without too much hassle.

Like greenie, you need to figure out what you can push data to from the MS3, or wire up duplicate sensors to everything. An all in one system like the IQ3 is great for that sort of thing, but means you are inextricably locked into one setup, especially with the rapid advances in GPS technology. When i bought my IQ3 4hz was pretty damn near class leading, but now its terrible. Even back then though it was highly variable to the Dorian system embedded in the track.

[Magpie]

I regularly compare the IQ3 with my Racelogic VBox and have no concerns. I also compare GPS vs gearbox speed as well as other GPS channels.

GPS is technically very complicated and it is not just the Hz that needs to be considered. For example a Tom Tom type navigator is only accurate because of the software as it 'snaps' you to where it thinks it should be, it is NOT a mm precision survey grade GPS receiver. I hate to count the number of times I have been told that a Tom Tom is accurate to the 1m, take it to the middle of the desert where there are no roads and see how accurate it is...

A bit of history but I was working with GPS when it only had a 5 hour window as all the satellites were not in orbit. Was also involved in the early trials comparing GPS to ARGO DM54...

The smarts of a GPS receiver is in the post processing... this is what the more expensive GPS receivers do. Lets not get into the accuracy of GPS when it comes to height! But I will, generally height error is about 1.5 times the horizontal error. If you have 10m accuracy in the horizontal then you have a 15m accuracy in the vertical. This is why survey grade GPS is so expensive, the vertical error is LOW.

http://www.trimble.com/gps_tutorial/

Again, 4Hz may seem low but in fact the post processing hardware/software makes it more accurate than a 20Hz without post processing...

The list I produced was not an exhaustive list, to be honest I have never heard of RaceDAC before. Harry's was only used because of the people who use it for lap timing and swear by it. The issue is not with the lap timing rather its data logging capabilities.

[takai]

I regularly compare the IQ3 with my Racelogic VBox and have no concerns. I also compare GPS vs gearbox speed as well as other GPS channels.

GPS is technically very complicated and it is not just the Hz that needs to be considered. For example a Tom Tom type navigator is only accurate because of the software as it 'snaps' you to where it thinks it should be, it is NOT a mm precision survey grade GPS receiver. I hate to count the number of times I have been told that a Tom Tom is accurate to the 1m, take it to the middle of the desert where there are no roads and see how accurate it is...

A bit of history but I was working with GPS when it only had a 5 hour window as all the satellites were not in orbit. Was also involved in the early trials comparing GPS to ARGO DM54...

The smarts of a GPS receiver is in the post processing... this is what the more expensive GPS receivers do. Lets not get into the accuracy of GPS when it comes to height! But I will, generally height error is about 1.5 times the horizontal error. If you have 10m accuracy in the horizontal then you have a 15m accuracy in the vertical. This is why survey grade GPS is so expensive, the vertical error is LOW.

http://www.trimble.com/gps_tutorial/

Again, 4Hz may seem low but in fact the post processing hardware/software makes it more accurate than a 20Hz without post processing...

The list I produced was not an exhaustive list, to be honest I have never heard of RaceDAC before. Harry's was only used because of the people who use it for lap timing and swear by it. The issue is not with the lap timing rather its data logging capabilities.

Sure, the constellation algorithms for GPS do help with the 'accuracy' (lets face it, it isn't really accuracy), but more datapoints for constellation is always going to be better. In another application I have worked with the difference between 5hz and 20hz for calculating communication node constellations on a fast moving node—an algorithmic pattern that bears strong parallels to GPS calculations—was in the area of two orders of magnitude more accurate (p<.05). To be clear, the speeds involved here were up to ten times faster than we are ever going to be doing, but the maths is still the same.

What it ultimately comes down to then is the processing algorithms which are effectively a black box for us (unless you are pulling NMEA data yourself), and unless they have significantly improved the firmware on the IQ3 then it wasn't doing a great job with its 4hz refresh rate. From what i can see the VBox Sport does quite a good job with the data it is given, to the point that on a few videos i was watching the GPS (and presumably accelerometer) was indicating braking at the same time as an LED on the dash was lighting up from the brake input (old school data logging with a video camera ).

Im quite glad that currently I am not champing at the bit to get a system, and am happy to wait until the spring so that we can see what the CL1 and analysis software ends up being like.

[greenMachine]

Maybe a little off topic, but if I wanted something to display lap timing and engine vitals from the MS3 PnP and/or external sensors, plus do some basic data logging for analysis post session. What sort of product would you guys recommend? Would be nice to incorporate shift lights into the display as well, but not absolutely necessary, as they can be rigged up independently without too much hassle.

Nah, that's right on-topic.

Unless your MS will output OBD2 data, you will have a choice of CAN or serial outputs of ALL (most?) of the data your ecu sees. Depending on the unit you select, it may limit you to a certain number of channels, or the data rate it can accept may be choke point, in either case you need to prioritise what you want to log. Virtually any unit will offer either or both serial and CAN connections.

From the ECU you may want revs, ambient temp, oil pressure/temp, water temp, if something you want can be had through your ecu (ie you have spare inputs available, and assuming that your display/logger connection can handle all the data), that may be a better/cheaper way to get the data than trying to input it directly into the display/logger (these sometimes require expensive little black boxes for additional inputs).

On top of that, if you want the 'driver' element, you will need GPS and accelerometer. These will allow you to log lap times/do predictive lap timing, see where you are braking/accelerating, and see your lines on a track map. This is the bread and butter of these displays, the main differentiation is whether they log engine data. You need to check whether the GPS is internal, or requires more $$ for an external unit.

My suggestion would be to go to the Aim site and scroll down through the range of logging dashes, the Solo series, and all the add-ons. The MXS/G are high end logging dashes, the Solos are more budget oriented but not meant to be dashes, and there is a new MXm which will be a budget logging dash in a smaller format.

When you have had a look through the specs for some of these you will have a pretty good idea of the sorts of devices available - whatever you see there will have competitors from Racepak, Race capture, and the others mentioned in Magpie's post.

It's easy to get dazzled by the tech, you need to ask yourself what you want from the system. To help with that both Aim and Racepak (and probably others) have youtube channels with introductory vids, and lots of users post their own instruction/review vids as well.

HTH

[takai]

Do note, its only the Solo 2 DL that has the datalogging from ECU, and it is ECU refresh rate dependent. A few sites out there are selling the Solo 2s with a blurb from the Solo 2 DL that suggests that the non-DL is a data logging unit.

Also the MXm seems to be available now: https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorspo ... sh-display

http://www.aim-sportline.com/en/products/mxm/index.htm

I really like the Solo 2 DL format, but i suspect the ECU only input will limit it for my purposes (especially if i compete in Clubman category for a while).

[SKYHI]

Thanks for the replies guys, especially GreenMachine. I'm a real noob at this ECU stuff

I already have the MS3Pro PNP (MSM0405) installed in the car, and pretty sure I can pull the data from it via CAN.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/meg ... eed-miata/

Whilst on track I really want to have lap timing (incl predictive), shift lights, and to be able to monitor engine vitals, which would include visual alarms if a preset limit is exceeded. Then after the session and/or day is finished just be able to download data for analysis. Starting with simple things like speed, rpm, track mapping and G forces with some ability to expand at a later date.

As for viewing it all, a mobile phone might be ok, but I'm thinking something like a dedicated dash, 7" tablet or Raspberry Pi touchscreen might be the way to go.

Because I have the MS3, I was thinking of possibly running the Pi3 screen so that I can run the full version of MS Tuner as Beavis has done in his car, and then use the same screen to display the info mentioned above whilst on track via a RaceCapture Pro or CL1 etc.

The MXM looks ok but is still a bit exxy at $1400, when compared to the other two at $600 plus $150 worth of Pi stuff.

[greenMachine]

That sounds like a plan, something like Race Capture or the CL1 would work in that scenario. It can grab all the data (ecu and 'driving'), and shoot it to a device such as a phone or tablet. I am not sure about the Rasberry, and where/how it would fit in here, but someone like Lokiel would know.

Shift light might be done separately with a stand-alone unit (or just a separate display), which means more flexibility in mounting the phone/tablet data display, though you want warning lights in front of you too. Might be worth a PM to Beavis for his thoughts.

I am not into this side of things, so it might be best if I leave it there, for others with that sort of expertise.

However, be aware that at least in NSW Supersprints, they are cracking down on 'electronic devices' within reach of the driver, mainly aimed at phones I think.

[takai]

Thanks for the replies guys, especially GreenMachine. I'm a real noob at this ECU stuff

I already have the MS3Pro PNP (MSM0405) installed in the car, and pretty sure I can pull the data from it via CAN.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/meg ... eed-miata/

Whilst on track I really want to have lap timing (incl predictive), shift lights, and to be able to monitor engine vitals, which would include visual alarms if a preset limit is exceeded. Then after the session and/or day is finished just be able to download data for analysis. Starting with simple things like speed, rpm, track mapping and G forces with some ability to expand at a later date.

As for viewing it all, a mobile phone might be ok, but I'm thinking something like a dedicated dash, 7" tablet or Raspberry Pi touchscreen might be the way to go.

Because I have the MS3, I was thinking of possibly running the Pi3 screen so that I can run the full version of MS Tuner as Beavis has done in his car, and then use the same screen to display the info mentioned above whilst on track via a RaceCapture Pro or CL1 etc.

The MXM looks ok but is still a bit exxy at $1400, when compared to the other two at $600 plus $150 worth of Pi stuff.

If you are talking Pis then ill presume that you are ok with some form of setup and programming. If you are, then you should be able to do all your logging through the PiDash using TunerStudio or similar. TunerStudio can take your CAN inputs from the MS3 Pro, and provide shift lights and engine vitals. I believe they are in the works of allowing for a lap timer as well. The Pi setup with TunerStudio has to be one of the most expandable units out there, and the community is always adding new plugins to do different things.

However, with expandability and flexibility often comes lack of reliability and analysis. I haven't been able to find much that allows for motorsport oriented log analysis, such as CircuitTools or RaceStudio etc.

[Tim_cyc03]

Whilst on track I really want to have lap timing (incl predictive), shift lights, and to be able to monitor engine vitals, which would include visual alarms if a preset limit is exceeded. Then after the session and/or day is finished just be able to download data for analysis. Starting with simple things like speed, rpm, track mapping and G forces with some ability to expand at a later date.

Motec C125 - you will probably never need another dash again, and it does everything you want. And the software is simple to use.