Yeh, that’s true there is some detail I miss which you have but I’m not good enough to really make use of the micro details like that anyway and right now the macro information is more than enough.
Here was my analysis of what is faster in the same corner that you are looking at (T6), as you can see I still have big improvements to make without looking too deep into the details and the analysis is probably easier to translate into changes in driving than more detailed analysis.
To provide background it was my first time at the track but I did my PB in my second last session (Red and Green lines are a 1.05.044 followed by a 1.04.854), in my last session I changed my line in the first corner by braking earlier and taking what I perceived to be a better line through the corner as after speaking to a few people they said it is faster to sacrifice it a bit and try to really get on the inside to setup for the next right handers (the4 grey lines are my last session, a 1.05.084, 1.05.332, 1.05.335 and a 1.05.420).
As you can see the change in line I did in the last session was 0.4 seconds slower which is clear to see in the data so next time I go I know to drive the way I was doing it before, if I did the same line I did twice in the session before I would of taken another .15 seconds out of my PB.
Here is the analysis:
The better line didn’t save any extra time through the rest of the complex which would possibly justify the sacrifice:
Data Acquisition Webinars
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- Dan
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
2009 NC2 - Ohlins (7kg/5kg), Whiteline Sways, Weds TC105N (17x8), OEM Hardtop & 2009 987.2 Boxster
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Points noted Dan. The one thing the Innovate system lacks is GPS data so I have to have the data side by side and use time stamps to match. In addition log works only allows the overlaying of 1 set of data.
Once I get the CAN information into the Vbox I should be able to do a similar analysis to yours, that is compare runs through corners visually. I'm looking forward to running SMP South again and put what I have learnt into practice.
Running on the SMP Gardner circuit on Monday should be fun and heaps of data to view afterwards. If I have time I'm going to either get the CAN into the Vbox or bring the throttle/brake sensors into it.
Once I get the CAN information into the Vbox I should be able to do a similar analysis to yours, that is compare runs through corners visually. I'm looking forward to running SMP South again and put what I have learnt into practice.
Running on the SMP Gardner circuit on Monday should be fun and heaps of data to view afterwards. If I have time I'm going to either get the CAN into the Vbox or bring the throttle/brake sensors into it.
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
An interesting article that I have had saved for a while. Explains how to use sensors/data/formula for understeer/oversteer and other handling characteristics of a car.
Positioning of the sensors is very important. Longitudinal acceleration should be on the car center line, Lateral acceleration as low as possible and as close to the center of gravity as possible.
For me the Innovate that can measure G force is located under the passenger seat and the Vbox is located on the firewall behind the drivers seat. Therefore the placement of mine would not be considered to be ideal. However the Innovate is possibly in the best position for accuracy.
Positioning of the sensors is very important. Longitudinal acceleration should be on the car center line, Lateral acceleration as low as possible and as close to the center of gravity as possible.
For me the Innovate that can measure G force is located under the passenger seat and the Vbox is located on the firewall behind the drivers seat. Therefore the placement of mine would not be considered to be ideal. However the Innovate is possibly in the best position for accuracy.
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- Dan
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Following up on the conversation about using G sensors to show braking I managed to get the G Data into the right format and scale it to display braking in a visual form the same as the accelerator, when you look at it in this format it's easy to see just how accurate it is. You can see how hard I'm braking into different corners, it's sensitive enough to show the sections I lightly brake on to get the car to turn in (T3 & T5) as well as the slow throttle transition into the fish hook which is something I need to work on.
For a relatively cheap video setup with an $800 Data Logger + $49.95 RaceRender software + GoPro I'm happy now
For a relatively cheap video setup with an $800 Data Logger + $49.95 RaceRender software + GoPro I'm happy now
2009 NC2 - Ohlins (7kg/5kg), Whiteline Sways, Weds TC105N (17x8), OEM Hardtop & 2009 987.2 Boxster
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Pensioned off the innovate Logworks and now starting to learn the Racepak data logging software, however still have the Vbox stuff to fall back on for video when needed. as well as the primary source for lap times. Not sure if I will be using the IQ3 dash to display lap times, I could use the screen for other thinks like EGT's and or pressures (fuel/brake).
The main benefit of the IQ3 logging dash is that I can get the data direct from the ECU and not have to run a separate system. But the trade off is I can't bring all my sensors over just yet until I get some Racepak Universal Sensor Modules. Looking forward to learning the Racepak software.
To quote from a recent blog I read "Collect the data when you can, sort it out when you have time."
In the same blog I found these very poignant points:
1 – The driver is in charge of his setup. The engineer just makes the change he thinks will help him the most.
2 – Resist making changes until the driver really has a good feel for the car. It has to “talk to him” first.
3 – Physics does not change when you cross state lines. Go with what you know.
4 – The secondary effect of a change can be in the opposite of the primary effect. Never make a change without considering the secondary effect.
5 – Use a data base to increase your understanding of your car quicker and with more accuracy.
6 – If a change does not have the effect you thought it would, than you are missing some effect that you did not consider. There is not some weird phenomenon going on, you just don’t understand the circumstances of the particular situation.
7 – When in doubt, go back to your base setup and start over from there.
8 – Never copy another faster team’s setup. You need to know why yours does not work, so you can be better next time.
9 - If a change works the way you thought it would, you did not learn anything. You did become faster, which is always a good thing. But, when the change does not work as planned, you have a great chance to become smarter. Grab on to that and figure it out.
10 – When recording changes in your notes, write down why you made that change, your thinking on what you expect it to do, and why. Then, you can go back later and see what your thinking was for making that change and decide where your thinking was wrong. This may happen months later, as you get to know the car better, but it allows you to see where your mistake was, not just that it was a mistake.
and
1 – What’s right is right and everything else is wrong to some degree.
2 – What is REALLY happening here?
3 – Nothing happens for no reason.
4 – Everything is attributable.
5 – If X is true then Y must also be true. If I can’t prove that Y actually does as I predict, then I don’t know anything at all about X.
6 – What I am certain is correct can change instantly in the light of what is REALLY correct, whether I like it or not.
7 – Just because I don’t want to believe it, doesn’t make it wrong.
7a – Just because I want to believe it doesn’t make it right, either.
8 – Knowing what is wrong is every bit as important as knowing what is right.
9 – If it isn’t all the things you think it is, then it is something else. (Sherlock Holmes)
10 – You only know something if you can prove it. Everything else is “I suspect” or “I guess” or “I wonder if” or “it is my theory that...”
11 – The right answer is still the right answer even if you didn’t think of it.
12 – The right answer is still the right answer even if you don’t have any idea of why it works... but find out later for sure, because the underlying principles will always apply.
13 – Asking other people for answers is perfectly acceptable, as long as you never believe them.
The main benefit of the IQ3 logging dash is that I can get the data direct from the ECU and not have to run a separate system. But the trade off is I can't bring all my sensors over just yet until I get some Racepak Universal Sensor Modules. Looking forward to learning the Racepak software.
To quote from a recent blog I read "Collect the data when you can, sort it out when you have time."
In the same blog I found these very poignant points:
1 – The driver is in charge of his setup. The engineer just makes the change he thinks will help him the most.
2 – Resist making changes until the driver really has a good feel for the car. It has to “talk to him” first.
3 – Physics does not change when you cross state lines. Go with what you know.
4 – The secondary effect of a change can be in the opposite of the primary effect. Never make a change without considering the secondary effect.
5 – Use a data base to increase your understanding of your car quicker and with more accuracy.
6 – If a change does not have the effect you thought it would, than you are missing some effect that you did not consider. There is not some weird phenomenon going on, you just don’t understand the circumstances of the particular situation.
7 – When in doubt, go back to your base setup and start over from there.
8 – Never copy another faster team’s setup. You need to know why yours does not work, so you can be better next time.
9 - If a change works the way you thought it would, you did not learn anything. You did become faster, which is always a good thing. But, when the change does not work as planned, you have a great chance to become smarter. Grab on to that and figure it out.
10 – When recording changes in your notes, write down why you made that change, your thinking on what you expect it to do, and why. Then, you can go back later and see what your thinking was for making that change and decide where your thinking was wrong. This may happen months later, as you get to know the car better, but it allows you to see where your mistake was, not just that it was a mistake.
and
1 – What’s right is right and everything else is wrong to some degree.
2 – What is REALLY happening here?
3 – Nothing happens for no reason.
4 – Everything is attributable.
5 – If X is true then Y must also be true. If I can’t prove that Y actually does as I predict, then I don’t know anything at all about X.
6 – What I am certain is correct can change instantly in the light of what is REALLY correct, whether I like it or not.
7 – Just because I don’t want to believe it, doesn’t make it wrong.
7a – Just because I want to believe it doesn’t make it right, either.
8 – Knowing what is wrong is every bit as important as knowing what is right.
9 – If it isn’t all the things you think it is, then it is something else. (Sherlock Holmes)
10 – You only know something if you can prove it. Everything else is “I suspect” or “I guess” or “I wonder if” or “it is my theory that...”
11 – The right answer is still the right answer even if you didn’t think of it.
12 – The right answer is still the right answer even if you don’t have any idea of why it works... but find out later for sure, because the underlying principles will always apply.
13 – Asking other people for answers is perfectly acceptable, as long as you never believe them.
- Dan
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Can you setup warnings on your IQ3 so if something is going wrong it pops up? For example your fuel is below 'X' Litres or something else is wrong?
I'd love to have my laptime and predictive on my dash so I didn't have to look at my datalogger in a different place
Back on the topic of books and learning, I was reading Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley for a second time the other day. The book isn't too technical apart from a couple of sections that at a high level go through car setup but it's still helpful since when you read it you find yourself having a think about habits you've formed or things you can change so for that I think it's worth a read.
Here are two quotes I really liked:
'Driving Style versus Handling Problems'
Your driving style or technique may actually be the cause of what you consider to be a handling problem. So, whenever you are having a handling problem with your car, don’t just think about how to adjust or modify the car’s suspension and aerodynamics. Consider your driving style - or perhaps driving errors. The first thing to determine when dealing with a handling problem is whether you are causing the problem.
'Learning the track'
Remember, the car must be sliding (understeering, oversteering, or neutral steering) somewhat, otherwise you’re not driving at the limit.
I'd love to have my laptime and predictive on my dash so I didn't have to look at my datalogger in a different place
Back on the topic of books and learning, I was reading Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley for a second time the other day. The book isn't too technical apart from a couple of sections that at a high level go through car setup but it's still helpful since when you read it you find yourself having a think about habits you've formed or things you can change so for that I think it's worth a read.
Here are two quotes I really liked:
'Driving Style versus Handling Problems'
Your driving style or technique may actually be the cause of what you consider to be a handling problem. So, whenever you are having a handling problem with your car, don’t just think about how to adjust or modify the car’s suspension and aerodynamics. Consider your driving style - or perhaps driving errors. The first thing to determine when dealing with a handling problem is whether you are causing the problem.
'Learning the track'
Remember, the car must be sliding (understeering, oversteering, or neutral steering) somewhat, otherwise you’re not driving at the limit.
2009 NC2 - Ohlins (7kg/5kg), Whiteline Sways, Weds TC105N (17x8), OEM Hardtop & 2009 987.2 Boxster
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Yes the IQ3 has 4 warning lights and an external option (piezo/light). Each warning can have 2 parts for example oil pressure below 20psi RPM above 1000, this way it won't trigger on startup. You can use any sensor for a warning. I have oil pressure, oil temp, water temp and fuel as warnings. I'll do a separate post once I get it all sorted out.
The Vbox screen gives lap times, predictive time etc and it is easily visible from the seat.
I agree with your comments about the driver being the source of the problem, for example not being smooth.
The Vbox screen gives lap times, predictive time etc and it is easily visible from the seat.
I agree with your comments about the driver being the source of the problem, for example not being smooth.
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
First time today I can honestly say that I enjoyed driving my car on the public roads today.
Almost ran out of fuel, gauge showed 0.3 ltrs on the way home, since I know that when it says zero it will be empty stopped for fuel
Spent a little time setting up the logging dash, lots more to do with it. Need to change out front brake pads some time tomorrow. I should have been doing a uni paper but spent the day procrastinating, probably why the MX5 was fun again
Almost ran out of fuel, gauge showed 0.3 ltrs on the way home, since I know that when it says zero it will be empty stopped for fuel
Spent a little time setting up the logging dash, lots more to do with it. Need to change out front brake pads some time tomorrow. I should have been doing a uni paper but spent the day procrastinating, probably why the MX5 was fun again
- Dan
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Re: Data Acquisition Webinars
Found a few videos from a YouTube channel SAFEisFAST that I thought were really good and sort of relevant to this topic since the videos are sort of nerdy and cover car setup/sims. There are so many other awesome video’s on the channel though so if you like these be sure to check the rest out here https://www.youtube.com/user/SAFEisFAST/videos:
Learning from using a sim:
This one about learning car setup using a sim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq6UgVrOU4s
Getting the most out of a sim:
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axc0i2AFZEE
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBuHJYlN4ic
And these ones about car setup, some of the explanations of things that took me a while to get seem to be covered really simply:
Camber, Castor, Toe, and Ackerman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0voTx7AuZQ
Springs, Shocks, Anti-Roll Bars and Bump Rubbers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JyKQyAVCfI
Ride Height, Rake and Weight Jackers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW9tI9iDa1c
Racing a Production-based Car with John Heinricy (I love the point about misdiagnosing the cars handling characteristics, I know I’ve been guilty of that):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0-tvUb5rMk
Learning from using a sim:
This one about learning car setup using a sim:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq6UgVrOU4s
Getting the most out of a sim:
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axc0i2AFZEE
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBuHJYlN4ic
And these ones about car setup, some of the explanations of things that took me a while to get seem to be covered really simply:
Camber, Castor, Toe, and Ackerman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0voTx7AuZQ
Springs, Shocks, Anti-Roll Bars and Bump Rubbers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JyKQyAVCfI
Ride Height, Rake and Weight Jackers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW9tI9iDa1c
Racing a Production-based Car with John Heinricy (I love the point about misdiagnosing the cars handling characteristics, I know I’ve been guilty of that):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0-tvUb5rMk
2009 NC2 - Ohlins (7kg/5kg), Whiteline Sways, Weds TC105N (17x8), OEM Hardtop & 2009 987.2 Boxster
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