Sasso wrote:l
Its not that hard even on my old box but fiddling with the clutch made it better (although its gone worse again for some reason).
Maybe your syncros are rooted and you need to ddc
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Sasso wrote:l
Its not that hard even on my old box but fiddling with the clutch made it better (although its gone worse again for some reason).
Sasso wrote:lol marcus, you're wasting time with the double clutch. Just practice doing normal heel toe before the next track day, its twice as quick.
Sasso wrote:You are effectively shifting twice. I don't know about you but I don't have time to do that when I'm braking, or another brain to think about it.
Sasso wrote:If you have enough time to do that then maybe you aren't braking late enough for the corner. Also try staying in 3rd on the back straight rather than 4th, I find I can concentrate on braking hard and corner entry only shifting once rather than twice, also don't waste time shifting up for no reason unless you are on the limiter well before the braking point. Although to think about it, I hit my 7400 limiter so your car should get there a little quicker and you might have to shift, dunno about the diff ratio, also depends on fishhook exit speed since its flat from that exit.Sasso wrote:I stayed in 3rd the entire time on the back straight, even though Kevin from the club suggested I be in 4th for that section. I thought it wasn't worth me changing up to wipe speed off that I wouldn't be able to gain back due to lack of road before the last turn.
As for braking late enough, I very much doubt that I'm near where the correct braking spot is, but of course that was my first time at Wakefield so I have much to learn about the track and the limits of my car. That being said, I found going from 3rd to second a breeze because of the double de clutch.Sasso wrote:About the extra effort, get a better shift knob or fix your clutch so that its smoother. Its not that hard even on my old box but fiddling with the clutch made it better (although its gone worse again for some reason). Shifting normally without rev matching makes it much much harder to get into gear, rev matching makes it easier, haven't tried double clutching.
Ah hah! You haven't even given the double clutching thing a go! Give it a shot and see how smooth it is to change gears compared to just standard shifting and your heel toe without double de clutch. During my experimentation I found if I was fairly high on the revs in 3rd and did the heel toe without the de clutch, it needed a bit more coercing to get it into gear, whereas with the double de clutch it just slides in. And as mentioned, that means more time with my hands on the steering wheel which can only be a good thing.Sasso wrote:If you find its just too hard to get into gear and you are braking on the very limit and you have plenty of time to double clutch then sure use it but at your stage I recommend normal heel toe.
Sasso wrote:I don't think its my synchros because it does it in every gear indicating a clutch disengagement problem.
Sasso wrote:On the street do what you like to entertain yourself but there's no point, that is why they invented synchros.
Sasso wrote:Learning the harder one will result in doing the harder one better, practicing the easier one will make it much quicker and easier than the hard one.
Sasso wrote:How can there not possibly be a difference in time between the two? You have to do the same thing twice! So at BEST it takes twice as long.
Sasso wrote:Yes you should be on the brakes as long as me or shorter but I'm saying based on your last track day you weren't, to do low 80's you must have been braking like a grandma, and thats fine and expected for your first time, but what I'm saying is you might have time to do it now, but when you start getting better under brakes you will probably half your braking distance and time and you won't have time to double clutch.
Sasso wrote:I did a bit of playing with a simulator program my dad has that estimates every detail of a lap around a track, in this case wakefield, everything is adjustable so I put most of the mx5's details including gear ratios. It was pretty damn close to my car and times. I looked at braking points and speeds and they seemed very accurate too.
Sasso wrote:you brake after the last marker going from 135 down to 70 in a matter of 3 seconds, in that time you down shift twice to 2nd,
Sasso wrote:Now how can you tell me that you can do effectively 4 shifts in 3 seconds?
Sasso wrote:you need time before and after shifting firstly to let the car speed down so you don't blow you're engine when you rev to 8k by downshifting too soon, and you can't be shifting too late because you would have started to turn and get the car settled to turn hard, and if you let the clutch out then there is much more risk of losing it.
Sasso wrote:So if you are braking as hard and as late as possible then you don't physically have time to double clutch. Just imagine you're flying down the straight at eastern creek, you take the first turn flat in 5th and arrive at the slow turn 2 in 5th at 180km/h. You brake hard after the last marker and shift down into second gear and start turning in while keeping full brakes all within a matter of seconds. There is no way in hell you're going to push the clutch in and out 6 times! without stuffing up, then have to do it for the hairpin from 4th to second and last turn 4th to 3rd and keep it up for 20 minutes.
Sasso wrote:Seriously its a waste of time I'm telling you. My dad (race engineer and gearbox designer) said the whole point is to whack it in gear as quickly as possible, and some people do it so quick they don't even use the clutch, they just blip and slam it in, breaks the hell out of the synchros but they go home after and rebuild it so doesn't matter.
Sasso wrote:...
Better in terms of it might make your synchros last a little bit longer but not by much since normal rev matching saves them too.
Sasso wrote:If you wanted to save your gearbox you wouldn't be racing.
Sasso wrote: give you extra work so tires you out, and it makes you do more multitasking as you should be concentrating on the corner, more to do is worse, just imagine also having to look out for other cars overtaking or lining up the car in front to overtake.
Sasso wrote:So I hope that gave you a bit to think about and hope you get practicing and realise that downshifting time is limited only by how quickly you can smash the lever across the gates.
[/quote]Spranga wrote:Sasso wrote:you brake after the last marker going from 135 down to 70 in a matter of 3 seconds, in that time you down shift twice to 2nd,
You are wasting time shifting down twice. Ddc and shift to the gear you need to exit the corner. Wasted effort otherwise.
Yes to make it easier for grandma to drive to the shops.
Is this a rule for everything in the world or did you just make it up for this post?
On the track braking generally takes longer than the difference in time it takes to ddc compared to not ddc as we are talking about 10ths of a second difference. When was the last time you had to brake for shorter than half a second and change down a gear? Therefore although the process of ddc requires more time than not doing it there is no actual lap time lost as you are hard on the brakes throughout the gear change with both methods
Directed at Marcus I assume??? Many more variables to consider here mate. ... this is a huge assumption to make without sophisticated telemetry.
Does it have an input for ddc or not ddc??? Didn't think so.
Sasso wrote:Also spranga, I was watching your eastern creek video on youtube and, I'm a bit confused because it doesn't even sound like you were rev matching at all, you would hit the throttle and engine would rev, then revs would drop, then you let the clutch out and revs would rise again.
Sasso wrote:To me that defeats the purpose because the engine is putting pressure on the rear wheels, and since your car didn't lose control and lock the rears I think I can safely say you weren't braking on the limit. Were you ddcing because it looked like it was taking too long and the revs would drop by the time you get it into gear and release the clutch (for the second time).
Sasso wrote:but at your level I don't recommend it, it just adds to the learning,
Sasso wrote:even I have a long way to go,
Sasso wrote:On the track braking generally takes longer than the difference in time it takes to ddc compared to not ddc as we are talking about 10ths of a second difference. When was the last time you had to brake for shorter than half a second and change down a gear? Therefore although the process of ddc requires more time than not doing it there is no actual lap time lost as you are hard on the brakes throughout the gear change with both methods
Actually its not 10ths of a second it would take about 500ms to complete and for ddc a whole second.
Sasso wrote:Now that extra time he is braking is allowing him to complete his ddc in time for the corner, but when he gets better he will be braking much later and shorter so he will be stripped of time.
Sasso wrote:You can just shift once into the gear you need but doing all this downshifting and gate jumping is just interfering with you braking, you need to concentrate as much as you can on braking as hard as you can and modulating the pedal, and corner entry line and everything else, downshifting is the last thing you want to be spending time doing.
Sasso wrote:Braking and cornering takes more concentration than you have available
Sasso wrote:Just imagine how much better you could brake and turn if you didnt have to worry about downshifting.
Sasso wrote:And that is why I leave my car in 3rd going down the back straight, it means I can concentrate on braking most of the time and shift once to 2nd which is a quick little blip and whack into gear.
Sasso wrote:Also, spoke to my dad, he said ddc over rev match it wont necessarily make any difference to the wear of the synchros. They are still working no matter what because they are there and constantly lining up the gear, even when you're ddcing. No racing driver would ddc except for the ones in the 60's when they had no synchros so whats the point of going out and doing it if there is no advantage and most likely a disadvantage (reduction is baking and cornering performance), or are you just trying to prove a point
Sasso wrote:Marcus, like I said above, I stay in 3rd on the back straight for 2 reasons, the first one is so I don't have to downshift twice, downshifting interferes with braking and I find I can pull up quicker and brake later when I use all effort on modulating brakes then quickly shifting to 2nd before I turn in. Secondly because you waste half a second shifting to 4th for about one second then have to start braking, so all that time is lost and I don't believe you are going faster, staying in 3rd gives you half a second more time on the throttle and keeps you in a gear with better acceleration so you should reach a higher speed.
Sasso wrote:Jumping gates is fine, and it can be done without ddc too, but at your level I don't recommend it, it just adds to the learning, it works in the same way as learning to drive on the streets starting in a manual or in auto. In the auto can you learn to drive easier but in manual you have to learn both things at the same time. And I'll say that even though you think its second nature and doesn't affect your braking, it most probably does and there is much you can gain out of braking.
Sasso wrote:I'm not going to stop you from ddcing but since you did ask, I am going to tell you again that there is no point and you're just hindering your learning to drive on the track by doing it. That's what I believe but its up to you if you want to hear or not. I'm not trying to be boastful, even I have a long way to go, I just know ddc isn't the way, but I am a fair bit more experienced and quicker on the track, I have been in your position and I can say that its the last think you want to be doing is complicating the downshifts, if you came and smashed my lap time using ddc then I would't think its affecting your driving, but until then my suggestion stands.
Spranga wrote:Sasso wrote:Also spranga, I was watching your eastern creek video on youtube and, I'm a bit confused because it doesn't even sound like you were rev matching at all, you would hit the throttle and engine would rev, then revs would drop, then you let the clutch out and revs would rise again.
My car has a stock exhaust so you can only hear the engine in the video when it is under load. So I have no idea how you can tell what the revs are doing or when the clutch is going in or out as you cannot see my legs or most of the tacho.... more assumptions perhaps????Sasso wrote:To me that defeats the purpose because the engine is putting pressure on the rear wheels, and since your car didn't lose control and lock the rears I think I can safely say you weren't braking on the limit. Were you ddcing because it looked like it was taking too long and the revs would drop by the time you get it into gear and release the clutch (for the second time).
More wild assumptions....
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