Heel toe vs heel toe double de clutch

[Steampunk]

Yeah I know, but when the brake is pressed, and I move any part of my foot to the right, it will just hit the side of the accelerator. I have to lift my foot whichever way I \"heel n toe\"

When I do it, it looks like the \"I'm really busting to go to the toilet\" dance.

[JBT]

As long as you look calm above window sill height it doesn't matter what you're doing with your feet

[Steampunk]

Like it says in my sig?

[wun911]

Im trying to learn heal and toe for nat meet. I think I need proper lessons (my mom taught me how to drive manual).

So all my life and for the last 4 years in the MX5 I have been doing this:

Slow down a bit
Aproach the corner
Put my foot into the clutch (foot remains in the clutch efectively in neutral)
Corner is finished
Put it into the gear I want
Take my foot off the clutch
And push the accel on

(effectively the whole corner is in neutral)

I think from the discription I was doing double de clutch without the rev matching when I had my leaky master and slave. It was kinda good because it forced me to never leave my foot in the clutch for more than a second.

Any advice/lessons for nubes wanting to learn H&T with super bad life long habits?

[fattima]

Hi Wun,

Bit hard to explain it all here but what you are doing will not be quick on the track. Have a read of this

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/dr ... ltoe.shtml

I also have a copy of SpeedSecrets by Ross Bentley worth a read if you would like to borrow it.

Bruce

[Steampunk]

So all my life and for the last 4 years in the MX5 I have been doing this:

Slow down a bit
Aproach the corner
Put my foot into the clutch (foot remains in the clutch efectively in neutral)
Corner is finished
Put it into the gear I want
Take my foot off the clutch
And push the accel on

(effectively the whole corner is in neutral)

If you were told to do that, then that person needs to be shot.

[Hot Rodders]

Im trying to learn heal and toe for nat meet. I think I need proper lessons (my mom taught me how to drive manual).

So all my life and for the last 4 years in the MX5 I have been doing this:

Slow down a bit
Aproach the corner
Put my foot into the clutch (foot remains in the clutch efectively in neutral)
Corner is finished
Put it into the gear I want
Take my foot off the clutch
And push the accel on

(effectively the whole corner is in neutral)

You should be in the correct gear before entering the corner and accelerate out of the corner. If clutch is in during corner, you basically have no control, If you come on the run Thursday night up Mt. Dandy, we'll give you some lessons.

I think from the discription I was doing double de clutch without the rev matching when I had my leaky master and slave. It was kinda good because it forced me to never leave my foot in the clutch for more than a second.

Any advice/lessons for nubes wanting to learn H&T with super bad life long habits?

[manga_blue]

Wun, the golden rule is that when you start to turn into the corner you should be in the gear that you want to exit the corner in with your foot off the clutch. This means you can accelerate smoothly out of the corner. You don't use the clutch again until you need the next gear further along the road.

I'd recommend that you get that bit right first before moving on to heel/toe stuff.

[Alex]

watch this

[fattima]

I'd recommend that you get that bit right first before moving on to heel/toe stuff.

Good advice

It is going to be your first time on the track, you will have enough to concentrate on without the extra confusion of heel/toe.

[timk]

Just to be clear, this is what I'm doing, and what I consider as a heel toe double de clutch.

1 - foot on brake and held on for the remaining steps, with foot positioned over the accelerator ready for the blip.
2 - clutch in
3 - out of whatever gear I'm in
4 - clutch out
5 - blip accelerator pedal to appropriate revs
6 - clutch in
7 - in to the lower gear I want to change to
8 - clutch out

That's also what I do when I'm driving on the street.

I do it this way as well, and it feels much smoother than blipping with your foot on the clutch. This could be due to the fact that I still have the original 1989 gearbox and it's not too healthy?

[marcusus]

OK, did some experimentation today. It wasn't as smooth as my version in terms of its rev matching, but it still worked. However, putting the car into the next gear felt identical to if I did it without doing the double clutch ie changing gears normally. There was no rev jolt, but there was still a bit of effort involved in putting the stick in.

So, based on this, I'm gonna stick to my method. The example is if I'm coming into the last turn at Wakefield in 4th and I do it the way the majority of you seem to do it, it'll require a bit more force to get the stick to go into 2nd. If I do it my way, it'll slot in nice and smooth, which gives me more time to be on the steering wheel.

I'll probably still practice both methods whilst on the street though. Never hurt to have another trick under your belt, and it might come in handy.

[Locutus]

I do it this way as well, and it feels much smoother than blipping with your foot on the clutch. This could be due to the fact that I still have the original 1989 gearbox and it's not too healthy?

ditto.

when done correctly, changes are very quick and silky smooth - almost feels like there's nothing connected to the shifter.

also, the quicker the blip the more throttle you need. the more throttle, the more induction growl.

[Sasso]

lol marcus, you're wasting time with the double clutch. Just practice doing normal heel toe before the next track day, its twice as quick. You are effectively shifting twice. I don't know about you but I don't have time to do that when I'm braking, or another brain to think about it.
If you have enough time to do that then maybe you aren't braking late enough for the corner. Also try staying in 3rd on the back straight rather than 4th, I find I can concentrate on braking hard and corner entry only shifting once rather than twice, also don't waste time shifting up for no reason unless you are on the limiter well before the braking point. Although to think about it, I hit my 7400 limiter so your car should get there a little quicker and you might have to shift, dunno about the diff ratio, also depends on fishhook exit speed since its flat from that exit.

About the extra effort, get a better shift knob or fix your clutch so that its smoother. Its not that hard even on my old box but fiddling with the clutch made it better (although its gone worse again for some reason). Shifting normally without rev matching makes it much much harder to get into gear, rev matching makes it easier, haven't tried double clutching.

If you find its just too hard to get into gear and you are braking on the very limit and you have plenty of time to double clutch then sure use it but at your stage I recommend normal heel toe.


As for pedal position I bent my throttle over and brake toward the throttle a bit, but more importantly I set the brake to get harder quicker and lowered the throttle so that it was lined up with the brake when the brakes are fully pressed as far as it goes (where it should lock up at any speed).
To push the brake I use the ball of my foot under the big toe, and I lift my foot as high as possible up the pedal, when I do that its so easy to simply swivel my foot a little and the side of my shoe about half way along my foot hits the throttle hard enough to shift quickly without putting pressure on the wheels.
I find this way was the easiest to modulate the braking force (no abs) and blip the throttle without changing the force on the brakes at all.

I used to use more of the whole top end of my foot to brake and my heel was close to the floor, but I found it was very hard to blip the throttle, and to reach it I had to twist my foot to uncomfortable angles, most of the time missed the pedal completely resulting is a spectacular corner entry.

I explained how I adjusted the pedals in the mania track day thread I think.

[Spranga]

I am with you on this Marcus. I always ddc and it is now second nature. I cannot see how it takes longer in track circumstances because you are braking and not needing to put drive to the wheels. If you are braking enough to change down a gear you have time to ddc, it is only a matter of tenths of a second. It probably does not matter at track days but I have been told by at least two seasoned driving instructors that if you are running in an enduro event, cars like WRX's will start to lose gearboxes if the drivers do not ddc. It is definitely better for the gearbox and if you are skillful enough it will not effect your braking or cornering performance. JBT is right you do not need to ddc, as the required gears will engage because of the syncros, however it stresses the gearbox less if you do. I also find that you can actually feed the clutch out faster in some circumstances because there is less likelihood of unsettling the rear end when it is light on grip due to heavy braking.

If is it is better for your gearbox and can be achieved without lowering braking or cornering performance what is the problem??? Maybe I am just paranoid about having to change my gearbox