Heel toe vs heel toe double de clutch

[marcusus]

Must admit I sometimes DDC but really only for the fun, not because I need too!

Isn't that why we drive these cars in the first place?

[Spranga]

Must admit I sometimes DDC but really only for the fun, not because I need too!

Isn't that why we drive these cars in the first place?

Ha, ha, still going Marcus! I reckon you will have the last post on this topic. Everyone else will have given up

[Sasso]

I think Marcus is trying to get his post count up, so he can get to \"speed racer\" the easy way.

Stuff ddc AND heel toe. Go for left foot braking and no clutch.

Seriously though it works. You can downshift without the clutch at all, but you have to be good. If timed right the gear will go straight in as if the clutch was pressed. All you gotta do is when you are slowing down put force on the gear lever blip the throttle hard enough so that it rev matches perfectly, the gear will pop out and when the revs are matched the gear will pop into the next gear down, no clutch at all, that give the left foot nothing to do, so use it to brake! I employ you, try it. You will feel like a retard though, (and look like one when you stab the brakes with your left foot thinking you need to clutch).

I don't recommend doing it all the time however. Get the rev matching wrong or put force on the leaver at the wrong time and you will be eating cork flakes with no milk, and your synchros won't last very long. As long as you get the timing right you won't be doing damage.

The idea is that a racer would use it on a race car because it has no synchros so down shifting is basically the same using the clutch or not, clutch just helps a little, but if you can do it without it then you reap the benefits of left foot braking!


Anyway markus based on some of the things I've heard you say. I highly, highly recommend reading at least two books (and for anyone else who is interested in learning about driving and car tuning, ie anyone that goes to a track day), both by Carroll Smith, One is called Drive to Win, and the other is called Tune to Win. At least then when you want to be argumentative you will be more sort of, right.
They will help you in your journey of learning to drive fast and learning to tune and mod your car.

To quote him a bit on braking and double clutching. The [] is me.
\"A good shift (up or down) should be heard but not felt. It should also be fast - very fast.
[Talks about how rev matching badly (too high or low) snatches the rear tires, markus, its not ok to go slightly over like you keep saying, you have to be spot on, you don't really have time to wait for the revs to drop to let the clutch out if you over blip.]

...the technique is not difficult to master and is a source of great satisfaction to the purists amoung us. ...
...By definition when you downshift a racing car, you are braking - usually hard. When you snatch the rear tires while braking hard, the car snaps into oversteer. This is not what you want in the braking area - especially while trail braking. Therefore you must blip the throttle for every downshift while the box is in neutral [not talking about clutch out]. Until you learn to downshift properly and consistently there is no way you can use your brakes to their maximum potential. So learn.

The purpose of the engine is to accelerate the car. The purpose of the brakes is to decelerate the car. THe purpose of downshifting is to select the proper gear for the forthcoming corner, and, sometimes, to stabilise the car - not slow the car. The sequence of downshifting is brake and then downshift. [Then he goes on about downshifting too early and overrevving and destroying the engine.]\"


\"Many authors (or maybe transplators) who should know better recommend double clutching in the racing car - I'll be damned if I know why. I do not know of one racing driver who double clutches - either up or down. Some of the older vintage cars require it, but that's not what we are talking about here.
The technique for shifting a racing gearbox with the clutch is simple - for the upshift, you... [etc, you know how to upshift]
For the downshift procedure is similar. You are braking, so you are already off the throttle. WHile depressing the clutch, move the lever into neutral. As the box comes out of gear, blip the throttle enough to synch the revs (this is a feel sort of thing - don't even think about looking at the tach). At the same time move the lever into the appropriate slot and release the clutch.\"
He then recommends learning to shift clutchlessly. But not if you have a synchro or are in an endurance race.

So don't double clutch on the track.

[Sasso]

tach). At the same time move the lever into the appropriate slot and release the clutch.\"
He then recommends learning to shift clutchlessly. But not if you have a synchro or are in an endurance race.

So don't double clutch on the track.

[marcusus]

I think Marcus is trying to get his post count up, so he can get to "speed racer" the easy way.

Pfft. If I was trying to get my post count up, you'd notice

Seriously though it works. You can downshift without the clutch at all, but you have to be good. If timed right the gear will go straight in as if the clutch was pressed. All you gotta do is when you are slowing down put force on the gear lever blip the throttle hard enough so that it rev matches perfectly, the gear will pop out and when the revs are matched the gear will pop into the next gear down, no clutch at all, that give the left foot nothing to do, so use it to brake! I employ you, try it. You will feel like a retard though, (and look like one when you stab the brakes with your left foot thinking you need to clutch).

I've done it once before in my old Ford laser. It wasn't easy, but it worked. Didn't use the clutch to get the gear out, and didn't use it to get it in. Did it once so I can say I've done it before, but sure as hell not doing it again. Too much precision involved and doubtful that it'll ever serve me well on the track.

To quote him a bit on braking and double clutching. The [] is me.
"A good shift (up or down) should be heard but not felt. It should also be fast - very fast.
[Talks about how rev matching badly (too high or low) snatches the rear tires, markus, its not ok to go slightly over like you keep saying, you have to be spot on, you don't really have time to wait for the revs to drop to let the clutch out if you over blip.]

Of course it's the ideal situation to have the revs exactly where the engine is going in terms of it's speed, but this all comes down to practice. It requires a lot more time on the track to know how much I need to rev the car to before it's a perfect match. On the street I'm a lot more precise, but there are still situations where I over rev purely because I haven't done the changes at those speeds before.

"Many authors (or maybe transplators) who should know better recommend double clutching in the racing car - I'll be damned if I know why. I do not know of one racing driver who double clutches - either up or down.

This all depends on who you know though
That quote is a little too subjective for my liking.

[Sasso]

The whole point is that it is subjective, I think he would have known a lot of drivers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Smith
He was a race engineer that led the ford GT40 to victory. Argue with him.

Seriously markus, if you want to get faster, learn how to heel toe normally, quickly, and use it on the track. And definitely read the books.

[marcusus]

Sometimes I wonder whether I'm stubborn just for the fun of it

I've been doing the odd heel/toe without ddc lately, but I'm so used to doing it my way. Only time will tell.