The trials of NC tuning...
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Its a world view thing. It has nothing to do with megasquirt, Last week I tuned a big single supra we built using an adaptronic, if the customer wants to look at the tune, fix an issue at the track, show his mates, I have nothing to hide.
I understand if someone develops proprietary software, they they want people to pay to use the proprietary software, but tuning isnt a piece of IP, its a tune. Thats like saying that people shouldnt be allowed to look at a house because they might steal the architects IP. Its ridiculous.
If the method of tuning is proprietary, sure, but if its available software than can be purchased, and someone has purchased it, why shouldnt they be allowed to use it?
Dann
I understand if someone develops proprietary software, they they want people to pay to use the proprietary software, but tuning isnt a piece of IP, its a tune. Thats like saying that people shouldnt be allowed to look at a house because they might steal the architects IP. Its ridiculous.
If the method of tuning is proprietary, sure, but if its available software than can be purchased, and someone has purchased it, why shouldnt they be allowed to use it?
Dann
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speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Also your engine isnt like mine magpie, it makes no difference if I look at the tune GT auto put on it I cant do anything with it, my car isnt your car.
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speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Dann if you copy an architects work, this would be a breach. It depends on if it is an exact copy or substantially different. IP law is very complex!
It is possible to copyright a tune using an off the shelf program. The issue is that the software is just one part, the knowledge that is put into the software is the IP.
People have copyrighted solutions that are based on excel. Whilst excel is available off the shelf it the way it is used is the IP.
IP is a commodity hence it should be protected from people who want to exploit what they never thought of. Further is is a decision of the IP owner to decide who has it.
Dann not everybody shares your passion for free exchange of ideas, however you at the same time profit off your knowledge. If it was not for this profit you would not be able to take the position on the free exchange of ideas/knowledge. Whilst you do allow people to copy your work you would not do your work for somebody for free.
I enjoy our conversations
Edit - yes my car is different however if somebody did copy the build then they could save on the tune by starting from a better position.
It is possible to copyright a tune using an off the shelf program. The issue is that the software is just one part, the knowledge that is put into the software is the IP.
People have copyrighted solutions that are based on excel. Whilst excel is available off the shelf it the way it is used is the IP.
IP is a commodity hence it should be protected from people who want to exploit what they never thought of. Further is is a decision of the IP owner to decide who has it.
Dann not everybody shares your passion for free exchange of ideas, however you at the same time profit off your knowledge. If it was not for this profit you would not be able to take the position on the free exchange of ideas/knowledge. Whilst you do allow people to copy your work you would not do your work for somebody for free.
I enjoy our conversations

Edit - yes my car is different however if somebody did copy the build then they could save on the tune by starting from a better position.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Exactly, despite me profiting from my knowledge I am happy to share it. Reality is that I am better than the end user at doing what I do, so them understanding the process serves to make people more comfortable. Sure, some people will give it a go but it doesnt change my the behaviour at the top of the market, just those who probably wouldnt have paid to have it done professionally anyway.
Its a world perspective. It has nothing to do with understanding xyz laws, its how I feel we should be as a community. I feel that it is catty and bitchy to complain that someone saw your tune and of course much worse to pursue it with spite like this thread seems to imply is happening.
Dann
Its a world perspective. It has nothing to do with understanding xyz laws, its how I feel we should be as a community. I feel that it is catty and bitchy to complain that someone saw your tune and of course much worse to pursue it with spite like this thread seems to imply is happening.
Dann
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speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
On this topic. I've Run a Dyno For Many years.
I Tune fuel injected Harleys and a fair few "Other" 2 wheeled vehicles.
I've Never had 2 bikes tune up the same.
Even with the "Same" build.
Yes you might be close, So I'll often pop in one of my favorite maps as a starting point.
But Every engine is different.
There is no substitute for a custom tune.
And The Dyno doesn't tune your engine.
The operator does. Thus, Some tuners have better tunes than others.
None the less, Stealing a fuel map won't "Dial" you in.
I Tune fuel injected Harleys and a fair few "Other" 2 wheeled vehicles.
I've Never had 2 bikes tune up the same.
Even with the "Same" build.
Yes you might be close, So I'll often pop in one of my favorite maps as a starting point.
But Every engine is different.
There is no substitute for a custom tune.
And The Dyno doesn't tune your engine.
The operator does. Thus, Some tuners have better tunes than others.
None the less, Stealing a fuel map won't "Dial" you in.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
That is why people do respect you Dann. You do what you say and that is unusual in this day and age!
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
zossy1 wrote:Sounds like the automotive equivalent to the Linux vs. Microsoft view.
Or perhaps the Marx vs. Thatcher view.
Yes, that's a good example - open source for the greater community vs Microsoft for the Shareholders.
The thread Started as an issue of Piracy. In my professional opinion, this didn't happen (sorry to disagree with you Rob). The issue of Tuner vs Tuner is a different argument and deserves a separate discussion and perhaps the additional features option could well be a licensing issue that the Software manufacturer needs to address.
I'm not going to pass judgement on any tuner but why don't they get the tune right that doesn't blow engines/requires constant monitoring and then offer the additional "Nice to Have's" under international licensing agreements that anyone can buy under the Licensing agreements. I Know that the few Supercharged NC's can't survive without a good tune (and lets face it, there are are handfull nationally) and many of us would like a EPROM upgrade for the same reasons.
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the cake and eating it too.
I have one of the wretched BRZ's and had the same choice pay $1,000 to have a tune loaded that couldn't be seen
or improved upon so I didn't bother. Motec now have an option http://www.motec.com.au/m1package-86/m1package-86overview/
which I know took them Month's of R and D to make it do all the little boring things your ECU does now. cost will easily
exceed $5,000 and you still need to pay for a tune.
If you want total control get a Full Standalone ECU or change engines/cars.
Modern cars can be tuned with their own ECU but it's all a bit of hocus pocus in line and not always a brilliant outcome.
All the EEPROM over write tunes are very time consuming so 10 hours of R and D by one tuner is agonisingly
slow compared to the live tuning of purpose built ECU's.
So the choice is
- live with the limitations of your free "hackable" ECU none of these Tunes are supportable by MAZDA
- get a standalone ECU made to suit the NC lump you will likely lose features from your car though.
- get and older and dumber Car/Engine.
or improved upon so I didn't bother. Motec now have an option http://www.motec.com.au/m1package-86/m1package-86overview/
which I know took them Month's of R and D to make it do all the little boring things your ECU does now. cost will easily
exceed $5,000 and you still need to pay for a tune.
If you want total control get a Full Standalone ECU or change engines/cars.
Modern cars can be tuned with their own ECU but it's all a bit of hocus pocus in line and not always a brilliant outcome.
All the EEPROM over write tunes are very time consuming so 10 hours of R and D by one tuner is agonisingly
slow compared to the live tuning of purpose built ECU's.
So the choice is
- live with the limitations of your free "hackable" ECU none of these Tunes are supportable by MAZDA
- get a standalone ECU made to suit the NC lump you will likely lose features from your car though.
- get and older and dumber Car/Engine.
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Re: the cake and eating it too.
oztrackdays


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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
And at the end of the day, If you have put a supercharger on your NC.
Mazdas warranty went out the window anyway.
Who cares if Mazda supports it?
I put standalone ECU's on Harleys most everyday.
Features lost? None. But seems to be a bit of learning time for the "Distance to empty" Feature.
Gains? Huge! Adjustable timing curves in every way. Engine temp, air temp, etc. etc.
Adjustment in fuel curves in every way, And still knows when your at sea level or high in the mountains.
Don't know what all the fuss is about.
Alter your car, For better or worse, And no Warranty. Except from the shop that built your engine!
We stand behind our work. I'll bet Dan does as well.
Those that don't? Don't go their!
Mazdas warranty went out the window anyway.
Who cares if Mazda supports it?
I put standalone ECU's on Harleys most everyday.
Features lost? None. But seems to be a bit of learning time for the "Distance to empty" Feature.
Gains? Huge! Adjustable timing curves in every way. Engine temp, air temp, etc. etc.
Adjustment in fuel curves in every way, And still knows when your at sea level or high in the mountains.
Don't know what all the fuss is about.
Alter your car, For better or worse, And no Warranty. Except from the shop that built your engine!
We stand behind our work. I'll bet Dan does as well.
Those that don't? Don't go their!
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Just a quick clarification in regards to the Oztrackdays post.
If he was talking about Ecutek for the BRZ. They have now made the software available for end user tuning. If you can convince a tuner to perform the tune and leave it unlocked. It is your's to refine as you like.
I understand Ecutek have only done this for the 86/BRZ/FR-S and not for other vehicles yet, like the MX5.
Bets of both worls as far as I can see. OEM ECU with all factory features plus the additional Ecutek features listed above. You pay for the software and for the IP features. Then it's up to you to shop around for a tuner (or DIY) who meets your requirements.
If he was talking about Ecutek for the BRZ. They have now made the software available for end user tuning. If you can convince a tuner to perform the tune and leave it unlocked. It is your's to refine as you like.
I understand Ecutek have only done this for the 86/BRZ/FR-S and not for other vehicles yet, like the MX5.
Bets of both worls as far as I can see. OEM ECU with all factory features plus the additional Ecutek features listed above. You pay for the software and for the IP features. Then it's up to you to shop around for a tuner (or DIY) who meets your requirements.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
The power of the internet.......
You want to be very careful making veiled accusations online. If you had concerns why you did not contact the guy directly before flinging these around - which some have clearly taken as gospel - is beyond me.
You want to be very careful making veiled accusations online. If you had concerns why you did not contact the guy directly before flinging these around - which some have clearly taken as gospel - is beyond me.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
I might have missed a few points here but it appears there are two separate discussions going on.
1. an ECU with preloaded tune
2. an ECU which you pay a tuner / guy with dyno to tune
In the first case, yes IP protection is valid.
In the second case...pfft. You as the consumer have paid the tuner specifically to tune your car. If you then take it elsewhere to enhance or change that tune, that's up to you as you "own" the tune.
1. an ECU with preloaded tune
2. an ECU which you pay a tuner / guy with dyno to tune
In the first case, yes IP protection is valid.
In the second case...pfft. You as the consumer have paid the tuner specifically to tune your car. If you then take it elsewhere to enhance or change that tune, that's up to you as you "own" the tune.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
Second point - agree but you do not own the copyright to that tune and hence are not free to give it away or profit from it. If somebody enhances yes but the person doing the work cannot take a copy and use the original tune.
There is a reason why there is a specialized law field for IP and copyright.
There is a reason why there is a specialized law field for IP and copyright.
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Re: The trials of NC tuning...
That may (or may not, I don't know) be true legally but legality has no bearing on morality.
Dann
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speed wrote:If I was to do it again, I wouldn't even consider the supercharger.
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